Thoughts on schools with high SEN population

[Dinoswearunderpants]

Hi

Hoping I don't get flamed here but I visited my first infant school yesterday as DS is due to start school next year.

I did not get a good feel for the school. It's classed as Outstanding but it felt utterly chaotic. It was like a maze and I appreciate the kids will likely just go from their room to the playroom/hall.

The school also said they have a high population of SEN children. This was evident as I saw at least 10 children walking around. They were in and out of the class rooms or doing various other activities. This clearly was disrupting other pupils.

They often had two kids to one adult. The class sizes are already large with three classes of 30 per year.

I appreciate schools have changed drastically since I went but I just didn't get a good feel.

There's one other school locally I'm due to view and that's classed as Good. They had a third less pupils and lower SEN.

I'm just wondering what things I should be looking for please as this is all very new to me.

This is very much the important thing. A school managing SEN needs well will be a better environment for all the children in it than one that isn’t, whatever the statistics. What the school feels like to you, and how you think your children would find it, is what matters most.

what exactly is your concern? Why it is an issue that the school seems to be supportive of those with extra needs. what are you worried about? that you perfect little kiddo could pick up a bit of ADHD or so?

Badly managed classrooms is a problem. For whatever the reason. If you have a ND child you want that child to be cared for and supported. If you have NT children you also want them happy, cared for, supported and you want the ND children in your child's class to be supported so they don't disrupt your NT child's education. Mn is very sn supportive, but the fact is that The majority of children don't have sen, so they are the majority.

The post by @cassgate is true:

cassgate
I work in a school that has high levels of SEN children. We have a very good reputation for working with special needs. You might say we are a victim of our own success because the better we are, the more the word gets round and we then attract even more pupils with high levels of need. The downside is that we are now at a tipping point where we have children that cannot cope in a mainstream classroom but no physical space to accommodate them elsewhere in the school. The school I work in was originally a village school with mixed age classes. Over the years the classrooms have been split in half so each year group is taught separately. Our playgrounds are tiny and we do not have a field or any other space to build. Our hall doubles as a dining space at lunchtime. SEN children are therefore in class with everyone else. As a result the rest of the class are now being disadvantaged as they are not getting the attention they need and academic standards of the average child are now slipping. We have 1 class that has 33 children 6 of them have high levels of need. 4 have EHCPs the other 2 on the SEN register. Think non-verbal, still in nappies, aggressive -biting, spitting, punching, head butting. There are 3 TAs and the class teacher. That’s 37 bodies in 1 class which realistically should only really have about 20-25 children in it. It’s very noisy. One of the children is autistic and hates noise so spends most of the time under a table with ear defenders on with his hands clamped over the top to drown out the noise of the other autistic child who is screaming constantly. It’s not fair on anyone least of all the SEN children. These children are all waiting for special school places. This is just 1 class, we have 3 other classes that have similar levels of need, although the overall numbers are lower as there are less than 30 children in those classes. Other local schools to us also with good reputations are reporting similar numbers. It is madness and is the main reason why this will be my last year in education.

Friends of mine are teachers. This goes on all the time.
Why is this ok? To subject all children to this is just wrong. The poor ND child. Plus, Why should NT children be subjected to another child screaming constantly. How is that ok? Why should NT children be subjected to such disruption. The whole thing is just so wrong, for all parties, the ND and the NT.

Why is this ok? To subject all children to this is just wrong. The poor ND child. Plus, Why should NT children be subjected to another child screaming constantly. How is that ok? Why should NT children be subjected to such disruption. The whole thing is just so wrong, for all parties, the ND and the NT.

why do you equate SN children with screaming and disruption? Both of mine have SN. None of the is disruptive, or screaming etc. One is the brightest in the year group? I wish people would stop pedalling this myth that children with SN are disruptive, loud chair throwers. If anything, my DC were at the receiving end of relentless bullying by NT kids are their mainstream schools.

Knowing what I know now, a larger school has a better chance of meeting needs well due to resourcing but also being able to mix things up to change dynamics around. With a smaller school you’re taking a gamble on your intake.

We’re in a one form primary and one of my daughter’s is in a class with a high promotion of adhd and difficult behaviour. It’s been a nightmare quite frankly as they haven’t been able to mix things up and the school hasn’t been able to get enough funding to adequately support the children. That is sad for the children with sen (some fit the disruptive model some absolutely don’t) but also the other children, many of whom seem to be developing anxiety about school and learning (which just adds to the challenges in the class). Add to that you then have some extremely bright kids who aren’t getting challenged enough and other kids in the middle who need a bit of support but fall under the radar.

“why do you equate SN children with screaming and disruption?”

Because that can be people’s reality. That obviously doesn’t mean every child but it must be a common enough experience across schools for people to have that perception. In one of my children’s classes there was a little boy who couldn’t cope and would scream and chuck furniture around - she was evacuated from the classroom a number of times. He is now in a special school and doing much better.

We have a lovely little boy in my other daughter’s class whose needs aren’t being met - he has autism and is quiet, very anxious and is often targeted by the other boys (the generally disruptive ones). The lack of funding for sen in general is a complete disgrace. Out of 30 kids in this class, there are at least 8-10 who can’t access the normal curriculum for various reasons.

An ok so “sorry Jimmy, I know that there is a kid who keeps trying to punch you in the face and is screaming at the top of his lungs and disrupting your class but he has SEN so you just need to carry on as best you can”

Again, using an example taken from the post I quoted on the last page. And yea, I know that’s an extreme example but still…

It obviously isn’t a myth though as SEN covers a white range of disabilities. Not all of them have behavioural problems, obviously, but some absolutely will. Nobody is saying that all SEN kids are disruptive in the slightest so you can stop being offended now

Interested to know how you were able to tell these 10 kids were SEN? Did they have a special badge or hat on? Because walking around a new setting for the first time (and I've worked in a primary as 1:1 with SEN kids) I really don't think it would be that obvious

And agree that a mainstream school doing right by these kids and getting Outstanding (yes I know that OFSTED isn't the be all and end all) is definitely one worth considering

Also when managed well kids with additional needs aren't necessarily going to be disruptive ... plenty of kid's without those needs can be just as much of a chaotic influence

Yes, most likely! I did begin to wonder if I was going mad.

My experience of NT kids in a high SEN provision school is

1 much more acceptance and empathy develops all round. Comfortable with people with ‘disabilities’, less bullying for ‘differences’ in secondary school.
2 can handle working in a disruptive environment, good at secondary school when they have to crack on with work.
3 some physical stuff like hair pulling or hitting from SEN kids but it’s usually a one off and they understand it’s not malicious.
4 lots of TAs in the classroom so lots of extra adults to help out.
5 highly non-competitive sports days!!

My opinion is it’s very positive.

I don't think the numbers of sen matter at all and indeed numbers being low can just show somewhere is poor at identifying and supporting pupils.

It's how the school manages it that really matters. You are better in a school that is good at sen support. Has staff, has training, has applied for funds, has thought about the whole school environment.

The bit that worries me most is you didn't like the feel of the place. Saying chaotic like a maze.

You haven't seen the other place yet, so you dont know the feel to compare.

I won't knock anything off mate.

Are you implying ALL kids with SEN do this? If you are, you are very mistaken. I'm sorry this happened in your situation. This does not happen with all SEN children, I can tell you for certain.

@Nuthatches
🙄
I was referring only to cassgate's post. so as Errors says, you can stop being offended now, and try not to overreact please, and read something into peoples posts that just wasn't there.

I'm not implying it happens with every SEN kid. But you were implying it never happens or isn't something OP should consider.

She certainly fucking should.

But it hasn't happened to her, has it?

She already discriminated against SEN kids, much like you.

Oh and wash your mouth out. Vulgar

She hasn’t discriminated against anyone. She’s asked for opinions and she has gotten them. From both sides.
We are simply saying that while not ALL SEN kids will behave aggressively and be disruptive, some might due to the nature of their additional needs.
Others have said that NT kids can be that way, and I agree. But no school publishes a ‘nice and naughty’ list do they? So we have to pick schools based on the evidence before us. OP has said school has a high percentage of SEN and seems chaotic. Now, we do not know whether the kids that OP saw wandering around had SEN or not. But if it feels like a chaotic environment, then it’s likely to be chaotic for every student and I can completely understand why she would not want to send her child there.

I have no idea what percent of the pupils at my son’s school have SEN, I didn’t even know you could find this out. But we get invited in all the time for assembly or for reading with your child and the environment seems calm and orderly to me (without being oppressive) so I’ve never felt the need to enquire about the stats

She hasn’t discriminated against anyone. She’s asked for opinions and she has gotten them. From both sides.
We are simply saying that while not ALL SEN kids will behave aggressively and be disruptive, some might due to the nature of their additional needs.

This is absolutely true. And I say this as the parent of a child with SEN and a child without SEN. I think the point is that you can’t simply know or tell by looking at the percentage of SEN in a school. You can however tell by visiting the school (on open morning rather than open evening) and see what the school is like on an ordinary day. That’s more telling than any stats. Our small lovely school has a much higher percentage of SEN children than what the stats are saying and part of it is because they are bad at identifying them. It is however an orderly and calm environment for the most part where both my SEN and non-SEN kids have felt supported. SEN kids are in every school and in every classroom and the number is higher than any of us realise and yes the stats mean squat.