Thoughts on schools with high SEN population

[Dinoswearunderpants]

Hi

Hoping I don't get flamed here but I visited my first infant school yesterday as DS is due to start school next year.

I did not get a good feel for the school. It's classed as Outstanding but it felt utterly chaotic. It was like a maze and I appreciate the kids will likely just go from their room to the playroom/hall.

The school also said they have a high population of SEN children. This was evident as I saw at least 10 children walking around. They were in and out of the class rooms or doing various other activities. This clearly was disrupting other pupils.

They often had two kids to one adult. The class sizes are already large with three classes of 30 per year.

I appreciate schools have changed drastically since I went but I just didn't get a good feel.

There's one other school locally I'm due to view and that's classed as Good. They had a third less pupils and lower SEN.

I'm just wondering what things I should be looking for please as this is all very new to me.

My dd goes to a school with a high proportion of SEN and she also has SEN and a EHCP. To be honest, it should be fine. Nowadays thers no TA in class and my daughters funding pays for the only class TA. But for my dd that's bad news as she has two disruptive kids who take up the TA time ( one TA sticks yo her ehcp, one doesnt).

Will they all go to the same secondary? Imo your better off at a smaller school but then secondary will be a shock if it's huge

SEN is such a broad category that it is hard to tell
Unfortunately from the stats you will never know whether it is 10 kids struggling a bit or 2 prone to throwing chairs round the room.

And what exactly are you scared the SEN kids are going to do? You have an outstanding school but you think by having SEN kids there, your kid will not have a good education. Or so you think the SEN might rub off on him?

What if your kid acts up, doesn't listen or isn't academic. That would disrupt other kids education.

And...what...just maybe....your child has SEN not yet diagnosed? How will you cope?

Unbelievable.

Sorry, but this matters to me. You said

Schools list their population statistics as both % with SEN with an a EHCP and % requiring SEN support – the latter not being diagnosed. It depends what high rate OP is referring to.

It matters because there is a section of society, many of whom post on MN, who think that as soon as you get a SEN diagnosis, someone hands your child an EHCP and unlimited funds for support, and the reality is not that.

An EHCP doesn’t mean a child isn’t diagnosed. I have three children diagnosed with ADHD and/or autism and only one has an EHCP. All are on the SEN register though.

SEN support will be formally on the SEN register which many SEN children aren’t, regardless of whether they are diagnosed or not.

I wouldn’t send my kids to a school that felt chaotic.

Where I live the LA sets the criteria for who is on the SEN register and who isn’t, and it has nothing to do with what a child is diagnosed with or awaiting an assessment for.

I don’t think that you can argue that a private school will manage SEND better than a state school. You reference dyslexia. SEND covers a much wider range of need, so maybe your experience is quite narrow. Plus, as has been said, private schools are in a position of being able to reject pupils who they choose not to have.

I’ve worked in state schools who cater well for children with a wide range of need and I’ve worked in schools that don’t.

A nurturing environment is important, I believe and a school that caters for all, is likely to be that. Go with the gut feeling. If you feel comfortable, your child probably will.

DH works in mainstream education and it’s often not children under SEN who are ‘demanding attention the loudest’. It is indeed more behavioural issues, often the ‘typically developing neurotypical’ children who are disrupting class. But let’s face it, it’s far easier to just blame children who are already at a disadvantage…

I know – all I am saying is that schools don't list pupils with a diagnosis on their populations stats.

I didn't say it did. I said schools don't list diagnosed SEN on their population statistics.

Honestly, couldn't believe what I was reading 🥺

The difference between a 'good' school and an 'outstanding' school can be marginal and dependant on the mood of the inspectors on the day. Read the full report for the good school and see why it missed out on outstanding - it might well be on a single point you don't see relevant to your kids.

The important point is that you get the 'right' school for YOUR child. That could be different to the next parent.

If you have a class with lots of high needs, the quiet kids of average ability disappear. The brightest ones tend to do ok still. Its the quiet ones who aren't going to get progression scores and meet all their targets that are the ones who aren't worth the time of the staff. They simply are down the priority list.

Might be unfair / not regarded as something we should say but the school re judged on progression scores and they are judged on SEN provision. The others have a certain level of invisibility...

I was asked two weeks ago whether we wanted our son to be on the SEN register or not following a diagnosis.

It was not up to the LA to decide that he went on automatically. Equally there must be a criteria which you have to be over the threshold for to be on it. But it certainly ISN'T compulsory - the whole conversation was about the pros and cons of it and why some parents are extremely resistant to the idea, and we raised questions about certain scenarios if you weren't put on the register...

There are other parents who clearly refuse to go on it, despite a fairly compelling need for their child to be on it though.

Go with your gut.

Most/many schools their SEN provision is poor. Most sn parents aren't happy. It's nice to see a few sn parents on this thread who are happy with their schools sen provision.

Wouldn’t that be because the combination of needs and diagnosis reached the threshold set though? I don’t think anyone has ever said that being on the SEN register is compulsory, in fact here parents have to sign it on a regular basis and provide their consent. It’s not automatic.

It seems to be an assumption that it's compulsory. And tbh I think a refusal to go on it often causes problems for other kids. I don't understand why it's non-compulsory if I'm honest. If your child needs extra support they need extra support. Why would you actively against that? In terms of being discriminated against, if you are at the point of meeting the threshold to be on it, then the teachers ALREADY effectively have 'marked your cards' if they are that way inclined.

I work in a school that has high levels of SEN children. We have a very good reputation for working with special needs. You might say we are a victim of our own success because the better we are, the more the word gets round and we then attract even more pupils with high levels of need. The downside is that we are now at a tipping point where we have children that cannot cope in a mainstream classroom but no physical space to accommodate them elsewhere in the school. The school I work in was originally a village school with mixed age classes. Over the years the classrooms have been split in half so each year group is taught separately. Our playgrounds are tiny and we do not have a field or any other space to build. Our hall doubles as a dining space at lunchtime. SEN children are therefore in class with everyone else. As a result the rest of the class are now being disadvantaged as they are not getting the attention they need and academic standards of the average child are now slipping. We have 1 class that has 33 children 6 of them have high levels of need. 4 have EHCPs the other 2 on the SEN register. Think non-verbal, still in nappies, aggressive -biting, spitting, punching, head butting. There are 3 TAs and the class teacher. That’s 37 bodies in 1 class which realistically should only really have about 20-25 children in it. It’s very noisy. One of the children is autistic and hates noise so spends most of the time under a table with ear defenders on with his hands clamped over the top to drown out the noise of the other autistic child who is screaming constantly. It’s not fair on anyone least of all the SEN children. These children are all waiting for special school places. This is just 1 class, we have 3 other classes that have similar levels of need, although the overall numbers are lower as there are less than 30 children in those classes. Other local schools to us also with good reputations are reporting similar numbers. It is madness and is the main reason why this will be my last year in education.

The national average is 13.6% SEN in the primary school population, so in your standard class of 30 that's 4 children needing some sort of extra support. Of course that's an average and some schools will obviously be lower but there has definitely been an increase in SEN in recent years, I would think most schools are around average rather than there being a lot of extremes.

Trust your gut feeling rather than paperwork.

They do - on the gov website you can view how many children are under SEN and how many have an EHCP per school. Not all diagnosed children / young people have an EHCP either. Its needs based.

A high level of SEN is likely to mean that they are good with SEN children and so word has gone round that they are, and so SEN parents often pick them. It might be that what you describe as "chaotic" is actually "flexibility" allowing pupils who have seriously uneven profiles to succeed, where other schools can't meet all their needs. This could be BRILLIANT for some children, but it doesn't mean it should be "brilliant" for your child.

What I think you always need to remember when looking at schools, is that they will all be slightly different and that is fine because children are all different. Unless there is a school that seems right for your child, but has something really concerning in an Ofsted report or something, I would focus on what your child needs and not worry too much about whether the school is "brilliant" or not for other kids.

My son had SEN. He went to a local mainstream primary school with a high percentage of SN children. I was already aware that the school was well equipped and welcoming to SN kids so I had no concerns. All of his little non SN friends who went with him all did exceptionally well too. An all round nurturing school will look after all its pupils.

Well that’s not me and that’s not what my comment implies. I am saying that you can’t know how many SEN diagnoses there are in a school because a school only lists % of pupils on an EHCP and % of those on SEN support. There is no % for those with a SEN diagnosis.