Thoughts on schools with high SEN population

[Dinoswearunderpants]

Hi

Hoping I don't get flamed here but I visited my first infant school yesterday as DS is due to start school next year.

I did not get a good feel for the school. It's classed as Outstanding but it felt utterly chaotic. It was like a maze and I appreciate the kids will likely just go from their room to the playroom/hall.

The school also said they have a high population of SEN children. This was evident as I saw at least 10 children walking around. They were in and out of the class rooms or doing various other activities. This clearly was disrupting other pupils.

They often had two kids to one adult. The class sizes are already large with three classes of 30 per year.

I appreciate schools have changed drastically since I went but I just didn't get a good feel.

There's one other school locally I'm due to view and that's classed as Good. They had a third less pupils and lower SEN.

I'm just wondering what things I should be looking for please as this is all very new to me.

I also agree about your gut feeling.

Remember that all schools will have children with SEN but those who are able to support them well and recognise their behaviour as SEN rather than assuming something else, is likely to be more flexible and nurturing in general. There will be a reason why it is SEN heavy and it’s generally because the school is known to be gentler and more tolerant. A good SEN provision actually means less disruption, despite what you may have felt from your visit.

I have personally had a very bad experience with a school with a high SEN population – though it's worth noting that this will often be the fault of the school.

What we also found was that the chaotic and poorly run environment of the school was actually created the need for SEN support that ordinarily wouldn't have been there. We know this because many children, including my own, who joined the school mid-year and had previously been in other schools, suddenly developed the need for SEN support when they hadn't needed it previously. Many of these children, also including my own, left the school for new ones and literally changed over night and required no SEN support. My kids' current school has a typical SEN population by the LEA and England percentages.

In short – it's not the kids with genuine SEN that are the problem. It's the school.

Would be odd they all vanished into thin air I grant you :-)

Instead, they went to secondary school - quite dull really...

(and to confirm, in case you didn't see my other post, small school, mixed years, year above a particularly large percentage of SEN for reasons unknown)

High numbers of SEN actually means high rates of diagnosed SEN. Remember that schools with a lower number of recognised pupils don't necessarily have a lower incidence. They are however potentially going to be worse at supporting them.

No, I’ve posted above that I realised about the mixed classes. But no fresh children with unsupported SEN came up from another year by the sound of it.

Just as an illustration of what I think an amazing school for SEN and all children is, our school regularly upskills all staff, puts a lot of focus into SEMH support across the board (something very necessary post-Covid and the source of a lot of difficult behaviour that doesn’t come from educational needs), maintains an environment where any child in need of it can access calm space, reassesses its general approach constantly in case it needs to change, promotes a diverse ethos so that the children as a whole are understanding of differences, has a full-time SENCO who knows their stuff inside out, and has excellent ELSA provision. As a governor I know how much effort goes into it all.

I know some of this is just not possible for other schools. The point isn’t that. It’s that all of this benefits all the kids, so I would hate anyone to think that because it meets SEN needs so well, it means it can’t meet other needs too.

Gut feeling every time.

Yep, this

I wouldn't choose a school that had:

High FSM
High SEN
High EAL

a number of the children not wandering around might also have additional needs. I don’t think mainstream is good for any child with additional needs or the other students simply because no one can get all of the attention they need

yes gut feeling but also realistic expectations of what an infant school is like - classes of 30 are v common with often one teacher and a max 2 TA per class. Lots of walking and moving around

Does it? Schools list their population statistics as both % with SEN with an a EHCP and % requiring SEN support – the latter not being diagnosed. It depends what high rate OP is referring to.

If there are lots of sen kids and it's a mainstream school (and not next to the local MOD weapons research centre/toxic waste dump) then the school is likely to be good at picking them up early where they could benefit from additional support, and getting them seen by the EP and any other services that can get them support.
If a school has low SEN percentages I would suspect they are only getting support for the children where they have no choice, and ignoring all the quiet struggles and maskers.
I know which one I would prefer.

Many kids with diagnosed SEN do not have EHCPs.

Personally I would choose the other school if you like it. Budgets are hugely stretched and support costs money, state school class sizes are large and there's only one teacher. It could be a great school that really manages all the children well - but you didn't get that impression so I'd go with your gut.

I worked in a school with an outstanding Ofsted and I would never have sent my kids there, so I wouldn't put too much store in that.

I was referring to undiagnosed and unrecognised children who almost certainly won't have an EHCP.

They still exist. Even in schools who like to pretend they don't.

She explained that? All of the other sen children were getting supporting instead of her child.

No, it was a mixed class and the children moved on to secondary.

Dd went to a mainstream Primary school that had a high proportion of children with SEND and EHCPs. They took all children from across the County previously permanently excluded as well. The car park in the morning and evening was really busy with buses and taxis ferrying in children from across County.
It was what all children should experience fully inclusive and everybody welcome. LA had to build on two more classrooms 18 months after it opened to keep up with demand for places as word spread and parents wanted their child in the school. Ofsted described the HT as inspirational and the year dd left in year 6 their SATS results were better than the local independent school despite the school profile and it being in an area of high deprivation with a large number on FSM.
I think that if a school is successful in managing those with additional needs then they are likely exceptional at meeting the needs of those without additional needs. For dd in every class there were 3 or 4 TAs as well as TAs that led intervention groups that would come into the class and take children for targetted learning.
I would say if the school has an outstanding rating when they have a lot of children with SEND and EHCPs then they are doing everything right and I would jump at the chance of a place.

Does the first school have a dedicated SENCO? Not a member of SLT that has the title added on, someone whose primary job it is to be meeting special educational needs? If it’s the former I’d be more inclined to go for that school, as typically they will be far more inclusive to all children, and those with SEN will be individually managed both for their own needs, and if your own child needs extra support you know there’s a dedicated member of staff to speak to. This is just from my own experience, there is only going to be a rise in SEN and schools who are not actively preparing for it are going to have everyone struggling. I don’t hold oftsed reports too highly, it’s helpful but not a guarantee that the school is perfect.

I know – I am saying that the school's listed % of children with SEN support is not the % of children with a diagnosis.

It really doesn’t mean anything unless you know what Sen needs surely ?
my daughter is highly complex Sen needs both medically and ASD / language communication disorder and cerebral palsy. She has a 1-1 and has been in mainstream her whole school life now in last year. She has never ever distributed the class.

high Sen needs doesn't necessarily mean it’s behaviour based.

But you’ve said that the stats are children with an EHCP and children requiring SEN support who are children without a diagnosis.

This is not the case. Many children with diagnosed SEN do not have an EHCP. This can be because their support needs do not meet the threshold for requiring an EHCP or because the current appalling system has let them down.

Undiagnosed children may well sit outside the stats altogether, although a school good with SEN will be putting things in place which, I agree, would bring them in.

It’s a fallacy that any child with a SEN diagnosis immediately gets an EHCP and lots of extra support.

This may sound really obvious- but - when you’re looking around, seeing the other children, the outside space, where they’ll have lunch etc pay particular attention to the classroom where your child will be- think about whether you feel you could spend several hours there each day yourself and that will be your answer

No I didn't say that. The previous poster said "High numbers of SEN actually means high rates of diagnosed SEN". I replied when schools list their population statistics they list 1. % of pupils with a SEN EHCP and 2. % of pupils with SEN support. I didn't say these are children without a diagnosis, just that schools do not list % of pupils with diagnoses.

You are describing our primary and it is a school that does NOT get it right for SEN children. In fact they struggle to control the classroom and end up failing both SEN and non-SEND kids. If they were getting it right then the SEN children would still be there. It speaks volumes that they left.