To be disappointed & offended by this

[HazelPlayer]

Myself and a woman I met while working abroad (in her country( have kept an acquaintance going for 20 plus years now.

She moved to Germany for work a few years ago and has since got into a serious relationship with a German guy and shares his flat. She was mostly single before this relationship.

Both she and I have made the effort over the years to meet up once every few years.

Since she got into the relationship, they. visited my home country once. I could not accommodate them, due to renovations, but acted as their taxi driver for their stay, got them free National.Trust entry to a major attraction, and my h paid for meals out etc.
I think it was also the first time this woman met my dd, who was perhaps 5 at the time. She was very interested in her and affectionate towards her; and my DD reciprocated.

I then visited them with my DD in Germany, DD was 5/6 at the time, we stayed in their spare room. My dd's behaviour was no better or worse, I think, than any 5/6 year old child.
My acquaintance appeared to enjoy spending time with my DD, lots of videoing her. Her partner commented he "didn't know who was enjoying this the most" when they were playing in playparks etc.

My dd found their flat layout confusing/disorienting and when she had a sudden, urgent need to use the toilet - which she didn't tell me about because she was too embarrassed in front of this lady and her partner at the dining table - she couldn't find the toilet fast enough and soiled herself a bit. She then panicked and threw the soiled leggings and knickers into a corner of the spare room, nicely getting a couple of poo marks on the wall/bed frame.
I only discovered this when I wondered what she was doing and went looking for her, my long-term acquaintance was right on my heels so I had no chance to clean it up before she knew/got involved and she immediately had the sanitising wipes etc out. She seemed relatively matter of fact about it.

This happened a few hours before we left, I was extremely embarrassed but we didn't have much chance to talk about it.

After the visit, among various bits of convo, she mentioned that her partner has confirmed that he was glad they didn't have kids and wouldn't be having them. I found this slightly undiplomatic (which she can often be) but thought "ok, to each their own" and "I'd like to see him around an actual badly behaved kid". Also I spent an entire day of a three day stay entertaining myself and DD and navigating the city's transport system to go to a pool complex on my own, and didn't insist on doing a day out that they suggested for my DD because I thought of would be too tiring and demanding for everyone. I also bought food and gifts. So we weren't exactly demanding/crappy guests.

During that visit my acquaintance suggested we visit during the next summer (the summer just past) because it was the best time of kids. I didn't arrange it did various reasons, she was very much awol/unresponsive on communications so I thought I'd perhaps offended her by not visiting again. I therefore suggested that maybe we could visit in December, if that suited them.

She has now said that we could not stay with them because she "promised her partner she would not have kids to stay in the flat again".

This sort of rules out visiting her again in her (now) home base. Due to expense. Or I could shoulder the expense, but it makes me feel resentful about spending loads of money to visit someone who can't tolerate a child - and children grow up and change a lot (!!!) - for a night or two.
.
The flights there are not cheap, there's no flight from our local airports so we have to travel over 3 hours to a major one (during that visit we had the expense of airport hotels because of flight times) too. It would be heading for £1000 to Kay for flights and accommodation even without airport hotels ... . and this is to visit someone who takes the above line towards kids.
I could visit on my own sometime but tbh I'd just be thinking "I'm here on my own because you're too intolerant to host a not bad kid for a night or two". And my acquaintance was so interested in my DD that my DD would be wondering why she wasn't invited etc.

I don't think this is just him because she has quite a strong character. I don't think she'd be dictated to.

Aibu to feel a bit sad that a decades long acquaintance has come to this?

YANBU. I can see you’re embarrassed and hurt. Also, maybe a bit worried for your friend, if she’s living with a man who decides who can come into their home, because it’s his.

Some people find it difficult being with kids. She’s been direct with you. Sometimes it’s because of a great deal of pain, such as being unable to have kids. Losing a child or sibling. Or some childhood trauma. Your DD’s visit/accident may have been a trigger but not the real reason.

But your friend has to understand that if you don’t embrace friends’ kids, it becomes more difficult to see them. Parents have limited time and money, and naturally want to spend as much as possible with their kids.

Do you need to visit each other regularly for a while? Can you not keep in touch by video call and messages? It may be good to meet her just the two of you at some point, maybe halfway? So you can chat to her without her DP being there. If you value your long-standing friendship, try to keep it going with just the two of you. When your DD’s older/an adult, you can visit again without her.

Why can’t the man decide who comes into his home? That’s not worrying - that’s kind of the point of having your own home, isn’t it? You get to control who visits. And that is marvellous.

I’m not following this, OP. On the one hand you’re keen to reassure posters how much this woman values your friendship but on the other, you’re saying you feel downgraded. Which is it? If you feel downgraded, it’s okay to feel sad about that — but relationships do change over the years.
TBH, I think people who don’t have children can often forget what it’s like having kids around, and a bit of poo on the bed/wall isn’t the end of the world but isn’t great either — and, as a child free couple themselves, I can see they might decide they’d like to keep their home child free too. So I wouldn’t necessarily take the fact they’ve said your DD isn’t welcome as a downgrading, even if it feels like that to you.

Your child has changed the dynamic of your relationship - however much she liked her.
Either visit on your own or let the friendship go.

Hi op. I just wanted to say this really - I can understand why you are feeling defensive about some of these responses. “That’s not normal behaviour for any child” and “I wouldn’t invite you either!” comments etc are really nasty and unnecessary actually. Comments like that would absolutely bring out the Mumma Bear in me too. Fiercely protective of your child is our main instinct. I suspect the commenters knew they would provoke a reaction. And trust me - THEY do not have perfect kids! And they do not know what’s normal for every single child. And they don’t even know you or your child at all.
Regarding your friendship with the lady you remain in contact with - it sounds like you need to take a big step back. I still have friends who are childfree, we have maintained a good friendship even though I’m a mother now. However if it was ever insinuated that my children are a problem or not welcome, then yeah that friendship goes at arms length I’m afraid. I only really make time for friends if they make time for me AND my children.

Why such disdain for those who don’t agree with you? MN is not an echo chamber.

it would be a shame to throw away 20 years of friendship- speak to your friend!

If they said come in summer then go in summer. Having lived in Germany, you can't really do much in winter because it's so cold and grim whereas summer is so much more enjoyable and you can be out and about exploring until late, swim in lakes, go to playgrounds etc. I used to find it annoying when people wanted to come in winter to be honest, it's hard enough being cooped up for six months in the dark without houseguests in a small apartment. If you can't visit when it's convenient for them then no, you can't go.

OP’s disdain is coming from commenters who insinuate her child “isn’t normal”. There is no need for that kind of response. Of course op will feel defensive at that kind of response. Like any parent would!!

Of course he can if he wants. But choosing to live healthily as a couple involves equity, consideration and compromise. A woman in this situation can feel limited and even controlled. Especially if he doesn’t take the view it’s their home after living together for years. She may need support to gain independence to get her own place or ask him to move to a home that’s jointly theirs, where she feels able to invite her friends to stay now and again.

Radio silence works both ways - have you contacted her?

It sounds like it's your turn to host so if your renovations or whatever are done now maybe you should invite her to stay at yours? She can only say no and then you'll know where you stand

I don't think this is just him because she has quite a strong character. I don't think she'd be dictated to

From the OP. I don’t think we need to veer off into a situation which this is all on the partner. That’s getting a bit close to ‘of course my female friend would have DD because all women love children, it’s just this unreasonable man’s fault’.

It sounds like they just aren't into having children stay, which is their right. Maybe they thought they'd give it a go and decided it wasn't for them. Maybe they are actually more put off by the poo thing than they want to say. It doesn't mean your DD is awful or they don't like her overall, kids might just not be their thing. It's inconvenient for you but fine for them to feel that way.

I have to admit that while I would feel sympathy for your poor daughter and realise that she did what she did through being embarrassed, and I'd be nice about it, I'm a kid person but feel over the stage where I want to deal with poo accidents in my home. (Grandchildren will be exceptions). It would probably put me off in the immediate term, but if you tried again in a couple of years, I'd expect your DD would have grown up a bit, so would give it another go. If I'm over it, then I can imagine how someone who is less child oriented might feel.

I'd have an honest conversation that they are welcome to visit you (if they are) but it's too difficult for you to visit without your DD right now. I'm sure your DD is lovely but, for non-kid people, any child is just not something they want to deal with.

YANBU to be sad that a decades-long acquaintance has come to this.

But the longer that you know people, especially if it's not super easy to go and see them whenever you want to, the more difficult it becomes to slot in exactly to the way things were when they were at their best. This is kind of true even when you are in the same country but far apart, often, as well as a flight away.

From your OP:
'She has now said that we could not stay with them because she "promised her partner she would not have kids to stay in the flat again".

I think you said that she first suggested you might visit in the summer, but you couldn't, so then suggested a December visit that she has said no to. By that sentence I'm wondering whether others with kids have visited them in the meantime, and something else could have happened that was not to do with your DD or your visit, that may have had a bearing on the situation. Maybe not, but consider that it's possible.

I have to agree with this as well. Some people’s responses are bang out of order and unacceptable trying to say the child isn’t normal and disgusting. That brings the Mumma bear out in me on op’s behalf!! Let alone how op must be feeling. :( Yeah Mumsnet can be pretty nasty at times.

This is presented as a rather strange story OP.

I didn’t like the bit about her/them being somewhat besotted with your little girl and taking lots of photos/videos. At that point, I wondered where your story was leading, -until the unfortunate poo story. For example, what does this mean exactly ? …
She also videoed her a lot and took a lot of photos while she was there.
(Though her culture is kind of comiically associated with that).

Couples without children with no wish to have them, probably won’t be able to understand or have empathy with the poo part of the story.
Also remember there are cultural differences to take into account too, so it’s little wonder that things have gone askew from that point on. Her partner wasn’t used to having guests including children in his apartment no matter how perfect a guest you were. You just have to accept that.

Your acquaintance now puts her partner before you and your child.
Friendships can change especially when a new partner comes into the mix. I think it’s nothing more than that. The friendship has evolved, because of her partner, and it’s not to your liking but it’s her wish to be with him in his home. That’s the way it is sometimes, no need to be upset about it.

I really wouldn’t be weighing up and comparing and reflecting on how good or otherwise you were as a host and as a guest as that’s not relevant any more and the imbalance is winding you up.
I wouldn’t be wanting to save to go there again to see them either. I’d take it that the friendship is by occasional text only now, and pretty much over in terms of making plans to see each other.

I wouldn’t be disappointed and I wouldn’t be offended and I wouldn’t be sad.

I would simply be glad that they have made themselves clear and you know where you stand.

Yeah it sounds like they definitely were put off by the poo thing - the partner is clearly one of those people who just doesn't particularly enjoy having kids around, and the poo on the wall probably confirmed that to him. Nobody likes having to clean poo off things when it's their own kid, let alone someone else's.

Also, I do think for people who don't have kids, whether through choice or not, they don't always want other people's kids tagging along as obviously that means tailoring the agenda accordingly, as 6-year-olds aren't generally a fan of the pub or art galleries or other adult-based activities. Your friend probably does want to see you on your own, and tbh I do think that is fair enough. I'm guilty myself of taking my kids (now teenagers) along to everything (single mum) and actually I think my friends have been incredibly tolerant!

I don’t have kids but…

Just 6 seems very young to take a child in what seems like quite a grown up city break-type holiday, staying with child-free friends in what I imagine was quite a small apartment. Perhaps your friend was a bit naive and didn’t realise how intense and disruptive it would be. It can be intense and disruptive having adult house guests, no matter how much you like them.

The poo incident sounds embarrassing and awkward. Did you apologise afterwards? Maybe a nice card and small gift to acknowledge would have been appropriate. A friend’s kid once pissed all over me and I didn’t even get an apology, which I was a bit miffed about. I understand kids are parents’ first priority but acknowledging the impact on others can go a long way.

I think reflect on how much the friendship matters to you but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect your daughter to be part of the friendship. Germany’s a great place to holiday. Why not plan a family holiday in the same region and meet up with your friend for the day?

Exactly?
Usually one would accompany a child in a new house, to the lavatory , to show them where it is.

The child would have been sans culottes from the waist down, and probably walking about soiled - no wonder the hosts freaked a bit.

I think you’ve misread the situation. If she’s south Asian, it’s normal to take lots of photos and make a fuss of your child through sheer politeness but it doesn’t mean she wants you to bring her along with you to every catch up meeting.

Don’t you ever meet up with old friends for a catch up without your child tagging along?

Imagine a friend rings you to meet up for a coffee and then she turns up with her parents in tow because you seemed interested when she mentioned them before. That’s effectively what’s happening here.

Generally speaking, other people’s children are about as interesting as owning a pet rat. Leave them at home.

I can remember the first time my nephew visited after our children had been toilet trained for some time. He was a little late for potty training and was eating solids so the stench of his full nappy was overpowering. We are talking full evacuation.

Even as a mother with a child that had only stopped wearing nappies a few months prior, your senses very quickly return to their deep DNA pre-programmed state of 'poo=bad! poo=bad!'

If I in my pre-children pristine flat - 40 floors up, harbour view, furniture just as I wanted it, diffused aromas of sweet vanilla beans and smokey warm wood - found poo on my walls, floor and bed, I probably would have topped the offending party.

Poo just isn't on the radar when you are child free.

OP, one day you'll be happy to have a friend that isn't a school run buddy when you begin to want to redefine yourself as more than a mother and to reconnect to aspects of your life that are wholly about you.

what an utterly Ridiculous response! 🤔

Mumsnet gets more bonkers by the day

OP, your friend just isn't that in to having a kid to stay . Rven if they interacted beautifully, it was still probably a bit too much both for her and her dp - who she can conveniently blame. Ut's not something to take offence at. I wouldn't want a friend with a young dc to come and stay (I have older dc) because the dynamics would be challenging. Doesn't mean I don't like the friend or indeed their dc, it's just boring for adults to hang out with small children who aren't immediate family members (even then it's pretty boring tbh).

My bff has no children and although she's godmother to one of mine and very lovely and involved with my dc when she's at our house, I'd never have dreamt of dragging them along to a meeting, let alone going to stay with her with them .... We meet alone and go on holiday occasionally alone together.

😂

I'm finding this thread a little baffling if I'm honest. From some of your responses to posters and also the whole scenario.

Your 'acquaintance' lives in a flat and yet your daughter was so disorientated that she didn't locate the toilet in time. I'm presuming you visited for at least a weekend, if not longer and the poo incident happened a few hours before you left? Surely she'd know by then where the bathroom was?

We're obviously only hearing your side of the story and I'd be interested to hear the woman and her boyfriend's version of events!

Context is everything. The friends couldn’t stay before at op’s house because of renovation work. The child had just turned 6 and didn’t make it to the bathroom in time.
and was so embarrassed that she hid the clothes and the clothes got poo on the wall.
responses trying to say that the child isn’t normal and gross etc, really are nasty! And yes the op will get defensive. Understandably!