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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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DalRiata · 15/10/2024 14:25

Zebrashavestripes · 15/10/2024 13:37

And school had noticed bruising well before that. Neighbours had also been concerned, but not reported. Stepmum' s sister also knew.

The stepmum's sister should face charges also. If there is proof you knew and did nothing then there needs to be consequences about that. How else will we change this culture of people looking the other way?

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:25

DalRiata · 15/10/2024 14:23

It's possible they thought they'd be accused of racism.

It doesn’t matter. There is no excuse.

You can report anonymously, you can call the NSPCC, the police…many agencies where you can choose to remain anonymous. It is not good enough that they heard this girl being beaten repeatedly and did nothing.

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:28

And the teachers who noticed bruising but said her story kept changing as to how she got them. Inconsistent stories around injuries should have been a huge red flag. She has been failed so badly, and I have no doubt it will happen again and again and again.

As a student SW it makes me want to weep.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/10/2024 14:29

I look at the photos of this poor little girl.

I one she’s covered with make up in the other one with a head scarf.

So sad.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/10/2024 14:32

Moonlightdust · 15/10/2024 13:27

The Old Bailey heard that neighbours of the family's cramped home in Surrey often heard screaming and the sound of a child crying accompanied by 'banging and rattling' as if someone was trying to alert someone that they were trapped behind a door.
Neighbour Rebecca Spencer said she would often hear screams, crying and then 'deathly quiet' when a distraught child fell silent.

Mr Emlyn Jones said: 'On other occasions Ms Spencer would hear other bangs from the flat and which sounded like someone had been hit or smacked….Ms Spencer did consider reporting what she heard to social services but ultimately decided against it.'
A new tenant Chloe Redwin similarly described hearing a child screaming followed by their Batool shouting, 'shut the f up' and 'go to your room you f b', it was said.
Ms Redwin would also frequently hear the mother refer to children as 'c*', jurors were told.
The prosecutor said: 'On occasions Ms Redwin would hear sounds of smacking; they were shockingly loud and would be followed by gut-wrenching screams of a young female child.
'Over the screaming she would hear the mother shout, 'shut up' and sometimes the sounds of further smacking would be heard followed by shouting.'
None of the neighbours alerted the authorities as Sara seemed 'smartly dressed' and there were no obvious signs of injury, it was said.

There are posts like this on MN
and very often the response here is “
How do you know?”, “ Wind your neck in” and similar.

greenday16B · 15/10/2024 14:36

DalRiata · 15/10/2024 14:23

It's possible they thought they'd be accused of racism.

Sorry but the absolute worse thing is to be accused of racism? to look a bit daft?
to be shouted at?

And nobody can cope with that!!!

DalRiata · 15/10/2024 14:37

hotpotlover · 15/10/2024 12:09

I always thought I was against the death penalty.

Then there was this case in 2000 when a German couple and their 2 kids were stabbed to death inside their house in China by burglars.

I think the murders happened in April, the burglars received the death penalty sentence in July after a 1-hour court session and the death penalty was executed in September the same year.

When I read about it, I noticed that I didn't really care and that it gave me an odd sense of satisfaction that they were executed so quickly.

I think we do need the death penalty in cases like Sara that are atrocious and where the evidence is very strong. I believe it should be executed very quickly, within a year after sentence.

It will never happen. There is a sick, twisted, perverse mentality prevalent in western society today where many care more about the rights of paedophiles, rapists, child abusers, violent criminals, murderers etc than they do the victims. I wish there would be more studies done into the psychology behind this.

roxyro · 15/10/2024 14:38

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:21

Every single neighbour who heard those things should hang their head in shame.

Safeguarding is EVERYONES responsibility. Yes, the blame lies with the bastards who did this to her but as a society we are failing. How many posts do we see on here where someone witnesses something and comes online to ask whether they should report it or not?

If you see or hear anything concerning, you report it. It is not your job to investigate, you report what you’ve seen and you leave it to the professionals to investigate.

I am so angry.

I share your anger but time and time again we read of worried family members, neighbours, teachers all reporting and gullible social workers are hoodwinked or just believe the excuses trotted out. Police say they’ll refer concerns to SS. No communication between agencies, terrified children interviewed in front of the abusers so daren’t tell of their abuse. Lessons never seem to be learnt and so it continues.

DalRiata · 15/10/2024 14:40

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:25

It doesn’t matter. There is no excuse.

You can report anonymously, you can call the NSPCC, the police…many agencies where you can choose to remain anonymous. It is not good enough that they heard this girl being beaten repeatedly and did nothing.

I agree but I don't think that message is clear in the public consciousness. How many hundreds of thousands of articles, news segments are devoted to racism, Islamaphobia etc? And by comparison how many articles do you see telling the public exactly what their responsibilities are in terms of reporting suspected abuse?

roxyro · 15/10/2024 14:41

Unless there are phone records of text messages to the stepmum’s sister it could be a ruse to shift blame. The teeth marks surely can’t be explained away?

BlastedPimples · 15/10/2024 14:45

Makes me so angry. I hate these people.

mindfulmiss · 15/10/2024 14:46

N4ish · 14/10/2024 19:17

There needs to be a register of home schooled children so Councils are forced to keep track of them and monitor their welfare. The law allowing adults to hit children also needs to be changed so abusers like this can't claim they were legally punishing their children.

I completely agree, and I do recall the new government saying they are going to do this.

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:47

roxyro · 15/10/2024 14:38

I share your anger but time and time again we read of worried family members, neighbours, teachers all reporting and gullible social workers are hoodwinked or just believe the excuses trotted out. Police say they’ll refer concerns to SS. No communication between agencies, terrified children interviewed in front of the abusers so daren’t tell of their abuse. Lessons never seem to be learnt and so it continues.

Yes we do. We don’t read about the many children who have been saved because of a concern from a neighbour though do we?

If the people who hear these things make a report, what happens next isn’t on them. They’ve done what they should do, conscience clear. If the police or SS then fail in their duty, then they should be held accountable, but the risk of professionals being “gullible” or not passing information from agency to agency should never deter someone from reporting a concern.

user2848502016 · 15/10/2024 14:48

It's horrific. I'm not usually one to cry at news stories but this one did bring me to tears yesterday, the thought of what she must have gone through and then them just leaving her behind dead in her bed

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:49

DalRiata · 15/10/2024 14:40

I agree but I don't think that message is clear in the public consciousness. How many hundreds of thousands of articles, news segments are devoted to racism, Islamaphobia etc? And by comparison how many articles do you see telling the public exactly what their responsibilities are in terms of reporting suspected abuse?

There are no legal responsibilities on the public, only moral. Surely to God people don’t need articles to know that if they have a concern for a child they should report it?

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:50

mindfulmiss · 15/10/2024 14:46

I completely agree, and I do recall the new government saying they are going to do this.

Further to this, I don’t think that any child who has been on a CIN or Child Protection Plan and remains with their birth parent/s should be allowed to be homeschooled. I understand people may find that controversial, it’s just my opinion.

Lifeomars · 15/10/2024 14:52

About a decade ago I made several reports to social services and the police about my concerns about a little girl who lived next door to me. I had a male neighbour who I barely saw, just glimpses of him in the kitchen when I was in my kitchen washing up as my window looks out into the back yard of the house next door.Both are end terraces. House was a bit scruffy, lots of rubbish in the overgrown yard and to the best of my knowledge he lived there alone. He was quite unpleasant, another neighbour had a word with him about the rubbish and got a mouthful for their trouble. His overflow pipe was broken and the water was coming into my back yard and because it was winter it was freezing over so I went and knocked on his door to tell him. Imagine my shock when he answered the door holding a very young baby in his arms! I had never seen a woman pregnant or otherwise enter or leave the house. I am not a nosy neighbour but its a small street with the houses packed close together so you do notice comings and goings. I mentioned the overflow, he said he would attend to it, I asked after the baby (said it was his second but that child lived with its mother) and it was a girl and he told me the name. As time went by I never saw a female in the house, never saw anyone leave taking the baby out for a walk, never noticed any visitors. Then one evening I was washing up and looked across to the house and saw a female in their kitchen. She was wearing a towelling robe with the hood pulled up to conceal her face. I would occasionally glimpse her after this first sighting, always in the evening, always wearing the robe and always with her face hidden by the hood. The little girl grew bigger and I would see her looking out of the back room window when I was doing my garden and I would smile and wave. She would wave and smile back. One day her dad saw her waving at me, yanked her back from the window and pulled the blind closed. This was the first time I contacted Social Services. The whole thing just felt "off" to me. Phoned then again when I saw her looking out of an upstairs window in the afternoon dressed only in sleeveless body suit during the winter. When this happened again I phoned the police who did a "safe and well check" and told me that there were "no concerns" They moved out in the end, that was the only time I saw the woman who I presume was the mother, getting into a van which was driven by an older woman. The person who bought the house had to get professional cleaners in, I spoke to them and they said it was horrendous, mess and rubbish everywhere and the cellar filled to the brim with soft toys. They said the only room which was clean was the bathroom which was completely spotless. For some reason this felt really disturbing. I feel that I did the right thing in reporting them, others may disagree and just think I was being nosey and judging a family by my own standards. However I will never forget that little girl. I

JudgeJ · 15/10/2024 14:53

XDownwiththissortofthingX · 15/10/2024 11:38

She's under no obligation to do anything that might incriminate or implicate herself.

Fingerprinting is different, because that's a standard after arrest, but in the course of a police investigation it's up to police to gather evidence which supports a case. Refusing to provide a dental impression is no different to refusing to engage under interview and simply "no comment"ing your way through.

Maybe as a result of this case PACE needs to be re-examined to allow the authorities to take whatever evidence they need and remove all the power from the accused. Any MPs on here?

NautilusLionfish · 15/10/2024 14:58

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 15/10/2024 14:32

There are posts like this on MN
and very often the response here is “
How do you know?”, “ Wind your neck in” and similar.

I was about to say this. So often someone posts "is this kids being abused. I have observed or heard ...." and it sounds like what they heard or saw was abuse and about have the responses will be a pile on about how they dont know the circumstances, wind it in, stop being so judgy etc etc. This child was tortured for a very long time. The fear she must have felt each time at school knock off time knowing she is going to those torturers. I cannot even imagine.

lovenotwar149 · 15/10/2024 14:58

An utterly difficult read, so so tragic

lovenotwar149 · 15/10/2024 14:59

How many other children are suffering at the hands of an abuser, a very uncomfortable thought

JudgeJ · 15/10/2024 15:00

Allofthelightsss · 15/10/2024 14:28

And the teachers who noticed bruising but said her story kept changing as to how she got them. Inconsistent stories around injuries should have been a huge red flag. She has been failed so badly, and I have no doubt it will happen again and again and again.

As a student SW it makes me want to weep.

When I was working in a school during the 90s and 00s there was a definite atmosphere of treating children from minority families differently because accusations of racism were very quickly made. I think that the police and social services also worked under the same restrictive methods, hence things like the Rochdale grooming horrors, which were known long before they were charged, happened.

lovenotwar149 · 15/10/2024 15:03

Lifeomars

I think you did the right thing for sure

FlowersOfSulphur · 15/10/2024 15:07

This poor little girl. I can't stop thinking about her. There were so many clues, so many signs that something was terribly wrong, and yet nothing was really done and she was left to endure a living hell, until she was killed. I feel so sorry that she was failed so badly. Given that her bruises were noticed by teachers, and her inconsistent explanations for the bruises, how did this not ring deafeningly loud alarm bells when she was withdrawn from school to be "homeschooled"?

Does anyone know what has been done about her siblings? They must have been seriously impacted by living in such a household, even if they were not directly abused themselves.

lovenotwar149 · 15/10/2024 15:08

Once, over 10 years ago now, when I worked as a TA alongside the class teacher in a reception class(age 4 and 5yrs) the class teacher lost it and dragged a child across the room. It wasn't brutal, the child didn't actually get hurt but the look of terror on the Childs face...oh my. I reported it to the head and I wasn't popular with the teacher afterwards nor with some other teachers in the school. They then seemed very wary of me. I , to this day, did the right thing in my opinion. I think we all carry a responsibility to do something when we see abuse to a child