To think having children isn’t an accomplishment?

[RealGreyLemur]

It feels like society places so much emphasis on having kids as if it’s some grand achievement, but I don’t see it that way. AIBU to think that having kids shouldn’t be treated as an accomplishment in itself?

Sitting here after one round of IVF, I think it is a huge achievement - even if it’s one that some people or couples seem to find easier than others.

I’m a feminist. I’ve lived around the world, obtained multiple degrees including a doctorate - plenty of achievements that I am proud of. But I don’t think it’s feminist not to celebrate different women’s achievements, whatever that looks like for them.

You don't consider the environmental damage? The diminishing of women's rights as they are pressured to have children, as has happened in the U.S. with abolishing abortion rights and access to contraception? The reduction of education to women from poorer countries?

It's only not being suggested as a replacement if you're suggesting it to fertile people to adopt instead of having their own children as well, which no one does. No one hears "we're trying for a baby" and says hey! Why don't you adopt instead! The fact it is only suggested to infertile couples literally makes it sound like you're suggesting a replacement.

No one needs to keep adoption a dirty secret, I haven't suggested that. It just needs to stop being suggested to infertile couples as a solution to their problems, because I promise you, they are aware it is an option already. Some infertile couples will choose adoption but every time it is suggested to someone going through infertility you are both insulting their intelligence and invalidating their pain. I really don't know what kind of answer you're expecting? Yes we thought about it but it didn't work out, yes we thought about it but it's not for us, yes we thought about it and we've done it. The only answer that would make it a useful suggestion is "oh thanks, we haven't thought about that/didn't know it was an option" and that is just not an answer you're ever going to hear because we all know adoption exists.

So I really don't understand why adoption is always trotted out as a suggestion. It's good that it exists, it's good that it happens, it's fine to talk about it in a positive way, it's just rude to suggest it to people who are having problems. Like lots of other things in life you would never suggest to someone because it's a personal choice.

If you want more respectful discourse about a topic, don't say hey I know this might come across as insensitive and then suggest it anyway. That's not how you get nice polite responses from people going through something painful and upsetting.

Looks like OP did a dump and ran.

'Society pressure' is used when people don't want to take responsibility for their own choices

'I had a child with someone unsuitable because society made me do it'

Who had done that on this thread? I certainly haven’t. Again, all I’m asking is for you to be respectful about it as an option for some people. If it’s not for you, that’s fair enough but it’s not second best and it’s not a replacement for anyone. To talk about it in such terms is upsetting for adoptive families (including adoptees), not least because it’s absolutely not true. I’ve asked politely and respectfully a few times not to use the sort of language you are using because it’s offensive and upsetting, at no point have I suggested that you should consider adoption.

I feel that what people are arguing about is:
a. where, on the below diagram, they would colour in if they were asked to colour in the area that they would define as an accomplishment.
b. Where they would place a x for having a child on this diagram.

The Rarity axis is meant to represent effort involved to do the thing as well. As in, it is rare to have the skills/tenacity and opportunity. So a gold medal would count but having a rare eye colour would not.

(I made this on my notes app so please don’t come here to say the labels are in the wrong place.)

There are people who agree on b but disagree on a and vice versa.

Actually, if you have had fatality issues, I would say that having a child is a huge accomplishment.

Well it was a bloody huge accomplishment for me - twice.

After fertility treatment, multiple miscarriages, health complications, sections and more post op complications.

I don't give a flying fuck if you don't agree.

I'm trying to explain to you why suggesting adoption to a person who is suffering from infertility is offensive and upsetting, the fact that you think what I am saying about adoption is offensive shows that it is offensive to suggest it to infertile couples. Because what I am telling you it sounds like, is what infertile people hear when the suggestion is made. I know this after spending years in infertility support groups.

No you didn't suggest it to me, but you suggested it to the PP who said they were childless because of infertility and I am trying to tell you why it is offensive. You may think it's harmless but I guarantee you when you hear it for the thirtieth time you lose patience for people's insensitivity.

As I said previously, I don't see adoption as a replacement, it's the suggestion of adoption to infertile people by other people that makes it seem that way. Like I said in my previous post it does adoptive parents and adoptees a disservice when adoption is inappropriately suggested to infertile couples. I admire adoption and adoptive parents, it's the pushing it towards infertile couples as a solution that devalues it.

If you find my explanation offensive I apologise but I do not intend to offend, I intend to show you how the suggestion is offensive. The thanks are rolling in for my explanation so there are a lot of people, who I assume are going through infertility, that clearly feels I have articulated their feelings on the topic well.

You really are a sheep. I am 52 and a woman. In the U.S. before Roe every state had a different law about if and when and under what circumstances. During Roe every state had a different law about it and when and under what circumstance and after Roe every state has a different law about it and when and under what circumstances. You can buy contraception at any age. You can have sex legally with the same sex meaning zero chance of pregnancy. You will not be kicked out of school or work if pregnant. You can be a SCOTUS Justice with 7 kids and are female. You can run for President if female. You can be CEO if female. You can code if female. All without written permission from a male relative. You don’t need permission from the Chinese Communist Party to move to another part of the country. You don’t need permission to travel within the country from. North Korea. You do not have to wear a scarf in front of males who are not relatives like in Iran. You can have custody of your child after they turn 10 unlike Iran. The west are idiots. If you cared about women’s rights you would not be distracted to the place women actually have them and instead focus on where they don’t.

Could have no one walking in the moon if that astronaut’s parents were childless. This is basic folks.

Goodnight.

For those who say that the achievement is in raising children well, what does that mean? “Well raised“ is subjective, how do you describe it what would it look like for you?

But that doesn't make having a child and equal achievement to walking on the moon.

Also if the astronauts parents didn't have them someone else would just walk on the moon instead...

It’ll mean different things to different people to me it’s this;

you do the best you personally can for your child in all areas of raising the child
no neglect
no abuse

Yes and most of it's luck, I'm sure there are lots of narc parents out there taking credit for their successful kid/s when they had very little to do with it. Likewise there will be young adults who were raised well but massively struggled. I don't really think parents should take any credit or blame (unless they neglected/abused them of course) for how their kids turn out.

I personally don’t think it’s how the child turned out that is the accomplishment (many things are beyond a parents control) but in how the parent raises them.

Eg a paeent could have a child and leave them and never see them again or contribute towards them - no accomplishment in raising them

a person could have a child they do their best to raise, they’re kind, calm, patient, nurturing, invest in the education and hobbies etc - they have given the child a good upbringing and have that as an accomplishment.

It’s an achievement to me. I said to my partner that bringing a life into this world and raising them is a big deal - I don’t care what anyone says. It’s a huge responsibility and sticking at it feels like an accomplishment.

But there are other things that people can do to feel fulfilled - this may be one.

@Makeherhappy agree but it's easy to see you raised your kids well if they're all successful and well-adjusted. Much harder if they've struggled. You're not supposed to go off the rails or fail at life if you had good parents, but it happens.

Someone had to have the person that walked on the moon. Good gosh babies don’t come from the cabbage patch. I think having a child is a greater achievement than walking on the moon. If we were intended to walk on the moon we would have been born there. Just another example of humans beings where they don’t belong. Like Antarctica. All this environmental nonsense and so many places humans not meant to be at on this planet and we have people in Antarctica. Why? Let’s leave things be. The next time you are in a plane look out the window. Plenty of space for wild animals, crops, untouched nature and homes. Enough to house properly the people in each place. This war on humans has got to stop.

But the point is - think of all the beings who have never existed - all of the sperms and eggs that never came together. Each embryo is really 1 in a million in itself - a totally unique being

so yes it’s miraculous and incredible

just because it’s real life, it doesn’t make it any less incredible

I don’t misunderstand. The female human is fertile from age 10/12 to age 35/50. The sweet spot is 20-34 as 35 at the time of delivery is advanced maternal age and fertility declines at 30 and the snowball gains speed downhill at 35 with egg quality and store. Too early and the body isn’t developed enough for the delivery part. So let us agree there are 15 years of reasonable, not possible just reasonable time to reproduce for a human being. Why would nature give 15 years of reproductive age to a species only meant to have 0-2 babies? And some won’t pair up. Some have to have a third to make up for that. And there is disease and natural disaster and war also meaning some have to have more. Some will pair off and not have half the parts for the job. So some have to have additional pregnancies. Gestation is 40 weeks out of 52 week year. It does not make sense when you look at it objectively through science that humans should not pair up and have a couple kids. Or spend some years trying to. The west is great. You don’t have to be married to parent and coparent. You don’t have to quit school. You will not get fired. There is no erroneous notion a pregnant woman or mom is incapable of learning or teaching or working or representing. We can wear what we want. Work at what we want. Drive a car. Fight for our country. There is nothing a woman can not do. The biggest deception in this world is babies are problematic. That there are too many people. There are not too many people. Not everyone has to have them cause some will have a fair few. People should have as few or as many as they want. Not decided by the government. And they have. Look to the family planning programs of Iran, Russia and South Korea. And the change of heart on the family planning programs trying to reverse. It was imbedded in programming, housing, patriotism, neighbors pressured neighbors to get fixed. The reason they can’t convince Chinese to have more is all the apartments meant for 1 kid, work meant for parenting one kid at least 40 years of telling people babies are expensive and unnecessary to change people’s minds about. South Korea the economic growth is amazing. You can’t convince people to marry and have 1. Their grandparents had a horrible tine of it. The have shoes, rice, medicine, free education, indoor plumbing, the freedom to believe or not, and the spare room is used as a closet full of designer bags cause they can’t afford children or marriage? Really been sold a lie.

It can be, yes. But I think if you’re a parent and you can look yourself in the eye and hand on heart say you genuinely did the best you, personally, could do that’s an accomplishment no matter how that child turned out when they were an adult because you achieved the best upbringing for that child that you could.

There would be no other accomplishments at all, ever, if a mother did not create and sustain life in the first place.