Christmas time off

[Girlinblue]

This will be my second Christmas in this job. I work in a team of 5 and we are closed for the bank holidays but other than that there has to be at least 2 people in. Last year I worked Christmas Eve and the days between Xmas and new year. so was hoping that I would have it off this year because surely the fairest way to do this is to take it in turns each year?

Christmas time off has been talked about a few times because we just have to decide between us who is working when. It doesn’t get allocated for us. A couple of the women that I work with have talked about having Xmas off again because they have kids and have things to sort out. I said yes but I don’t really want to work it again because I did it last year and you both were off, so it’s not very fair if the same people are getting it off every time. They are saying that the people with kids should take priority. But just because I don’t have kids doesn’t mean I don’t also have things to prepare and things/traditions of my own. I want to spend time with my family and make plans etc just as much as they do.

I was thinking of bringing it up in a meeting to my manager to say how it needs to be split fairly. Myself and my other child free colleague also deserve to have the time off and our Christmas isn’t any less valuable to those with kids. i know some people don’t care about Christmas and some people do think it’s just for kids. But for me it’s not, I have a big family that I rarely get to see throughout the year and Christmas is the time that I get to see them and spend time with them.

Would I be unreasonable to bring this up further and insist that this should be split fairly each year? How is the best way to do it without causing unnecessary drama?

“It takes a village” means that, on having children, you have to accept that you will not be the only influence on that child and that you will need a network of people around you who will be a positive influence on that child, and provide you with support.

It doesn’t mean that if you don’t have children, you’re in any way responsible for those who do.

Mostly it's a practical thing to do with childcare.

Exactly. If you literally have no other childcare options (which was the case on that other thread) you're hardly going to leave small children home alone because that would be neglect, so you won't be going in regardless 🤷‍♀️

Why should they? It's up to managers to manage. People have their own reasons for wanting leave and other people's childcare isn't their responsibility. As it happens I was always happy to work to help others out as I didn't care what days I worked but I don't think there should be an expectation that parents get preferential treatment

Definitely bring it up with your manager leave needs to be done fairly over Christmas break

I have children but I think I am in the minority that after the chaos of Christmas day and Boxing day I am happy to go back to work for some peace 😂but my office always closes Christmas eve

You do know that even adults are someone's DC and we would like to spend Christmas with them as well. For some of us it's not just a case of them "popping round after work". My DD, for example, lives a 6 hour round trip away and we would love to spend the whole of Christmas together (it's been 6 years since the last one we had), but, apparently, our wants don't matter.

Speaking as someone with kids, YANBU. Everyone should do their fair share if everyone wants the time off.

I have retired but worked in retail the last 15 years. We had one lady who only worked two days but always got the week in between off, even with different managers.
I could only ever have the days she didn't want it fucked me off no end. We can only book holidays online up to a year in advance so I got up the day after boxing day at 5 am and booked the next boxing day so nobody could say "first come first served". I always worked at least two of the special days every year, she never did any.
She always said she wanted to be with her children, both our kids are in their 30s, well I wanted to see mine.
Tell your manager to sort it, I wish I had instead of seething with resentment every year.

I think what people with children often forget is that people without children frequently need to travel to family at Christmas if they don't want to spend it alone. Some of these people also don't have cars. (Very common among, for example, 20 somethings who live in London and house share.) So if those people can't have the 24th or the 27th off because priority has been given to those with children, they risk being stuck spending Christmas completely alone because they can't get a train back to wherever they live on Boxing Day ready to go back to work on the 27th.

Personally I think that outside of essential/emergency services, employers should be more mindful about whether they really need people to be in over Christmas. I spent many years working between Christmas and New Year, pretty much the only one in, and absolutely fuck all happened. I was absolutely OK with working those days, and didn't request the time off, because I wasn't at risk of spending Christmas alone and I quite enjoyed being at work on days when fuck all was happening and I could take it easy. But really, if I hadn't been there, there would have been no consequences, and if I hadn't been willing to cover those days there was no real business need to force someone to work.

The way I have always done it is
Everyone says what they want. They put their days in order of priority for them
Get confirmation of required levels.
Allocate leave proportionately to all those that have requested it. Picking the dates closest to those requested. If I cannot allocate evenly, it's picked randomly.
If more leave becomes available (people cancel or management decide) those that didn't get what they wanted get first dibs. All agreed in October so people can use up their annual leave over half term.
This avoids "last year" talk.

I worked for the same organisation for many years, and there were various processes for sharing leave. None were ideal, but management did finally at least try to be fair.

The office was closed Bank Holidays, but the time between Christmas and New Year was always sought after, and to start with around 50% of staff were allowed off.

As a young childless person I was told I had to work the first year. For the next 6 years I ended up working with different women with children. For each of those years I was asked to work, with the promise of being off the following year. It never happened.

I had to make a stand and on year 8 I flatly refused. There was much emotional blackmail, requests to share the time off, etc but I stood firm. My own manager supported me, but a more senior one threatened disciplinary action. I had followed all proper procedures and applied for leave in writing, so had written rejections for 7 years. I threatened HR and ACAS.

I got the leave and for once was able to travel to see more distant relatives.
There was more fairness after that and whilst there were exceptions for special circumstances everyone was expected to cover their share.

I feel strongly that it is up to management to manage, not pick on the weakest target. They would have to make decisions if everyone in the team had children.

I read the other post about how hard it is to get childcare at Christmas, and am not unsympathetic, it’s sometimes a similar situation for adult carers, but if a manager ( not unreasonably) accepts that as a reason for allowing leave over and above the desired level, it is similarly up to them to fill the gap or accept lower staffing levels.

Filling the gap could be by various means such as using temporary staff, or by offering financial / time inducements to actual volunteers.

Personally I think that outside of essential/emergency services, employers should be more mindful about whether they really need people to be in over Christmas. I spent many years working between Christmas and New Year, pretty much the only one in, and absolutely fuck all happened. I was absolutely OK with working those days, and didn't request the time off, because I wasn't at risk of spending Christmas alone and I quite enjoyed being at work on days when fuck all was happening and I could take it easy. But really, if I hadn't been there, there would have been no consequences, and if I hadn't been willing to cover those days there was no real business need to force someone to work.

I agree. It makes no sense environmentally to heat, light a building and provide essential services for the handful of staff who will be there. I also worked between Christmas and new year for many years. It was always the same people who said they would work at the November staff meeting and then quietly booked leave. It was the best thing ever when it was decided to shut down for that period.

With my employer (we got taken over last year), it seems to be that whoever is aware that we don’t subscribe to industry norms and stay open gets to book the time off before those who were not aware. Yes, I’m annoyed.

@Nogaxeh I see it the other way around - very selfish and entitled of the parents to expect colleagues without children to cover Christmas etc year after year rather than rotating if someone is needed to work over Christmas. It's fine to ask but if someone has worked the previous Christmas and now wants this Christmas off that should be the end of the discussion - no guilt tripping them to work just because they don't have young kids, and manager needs to step in and ensure leave is allocated fairly.

On financial inducement, I'd absolutely work Christmas if I got paid a good additional sum to do so. It was proposed once during my 7-year stint of having to work Christmases, but the parents who were benefitting from me doing it for free said that it would be "unfair" of me to get paid for something I was doing for free, and that if it was implemented they'd go to HR on discrimination grounds.

More fool them, as that was the last time I accepted that it was somehow part of my job description to do it.

Why is someone else's childcare issues the OP or anyone else's problem? Why should anyone give up their own family time because of someone else's childcare?

It shouldn't matter your reasons - it should be done fairly- you might be single and staying at home to eat chocolate all Christmas week watching Christmas tv - -you should be allowed time off if you would like it regardless of whether you have children or not

What happens if everyone where you worked had small children and they all wanted the entire time off year on year - it couldn't happen

As well as children, there are people of all ages in a typical village.
Is it 'not a big deal' for someone to have to forgo seeing a terminally ill relative because they have to cover Christmas for someone with a child?
Or for someone to have to be alone over the period because their family or friends who they'd spend it with live somewhere else and they haven't got enough time to travel there and back?

What a horrible thing to make up lies about.

I would ideally like to book Christmas off this year, as I am heartbroken to be facing up to being in that exact position this year, but the thought of people making up lies about this sort of thing is quite upsetting

I don't think that, as a society, people should have their noses so far bent out of joint over being asked to do something generous for their colleagues. Life is better if we're all prepared to be generous for others from time to time, and people without childcare, or other caring, responsibilities have a greater capacity to give.

And when is that generosity to be repayed to child free people? When is it their turn to be put first?

Most childcare providers will want to take Christmas off too. So most parents should be aware of that and be prepared to sort it out, rather than just assuming they will always get Christmas off.

Just from a point of view of maximising happiness out makes sense to do something so that parents can be with their children. You are meaning here that happiness is measurable, right? That children and parents being together is more happy than adult children and their parents, or adults and their dear friends, or adults and their spouses/partners being together? And more happy than a person wanting to spend Christmas Day in their PJs alone watching Carols from King's and eating cake, if that's their idea of a maximally happy Christmas? How do you measure it? Who are you to do so?

people without childcare, or other caring, responsibilities have a greater capacity to give. Says who? In what way? What 'capacity'?

A sign of how selfish society is that people wouldn't think to offer automatically.
A sign of how selfish society is, IMO, when people with kids don't seem to care anyone else's family/loved ones/wishes matter.

Yes speak to your manager. Don't agree to working it if you did last year.

This is exactly the case in my work! Those who are fairly newly qualified have often moved to the city for uni/ work & need a few days off in a row to see their loved ones !

As a parent working in the NHS Christmas working is part of the job ( incl Christmas Day ) & we all have to take our turn. No one gets priority! If not enough volunteers it’s names in a hat (you’re not included in this if you worked the previous year) . No preference given to parents of young kids, all treated equally. Stick to your guns op!

It would be far easier for a couple with small children to shift their Christmas celebration to a couple of days before or after than it would for an adult who needs to travel to see their family.

As for ‘be kind’ and ‘it takes a village’, if someone gets preferential treatment when they have small children then it’s only fair that they pay it back once their kids are older by taking their turn to offer to cover for parents of you get kids. But it’s NOT fair if people who never have kids, for whatever reason, are expected to volunteer every year.

Well I can tell you that having children is NOT a reason for getting priority leave. It must be fair and equitable and if someone had the time off last year then they should not get it this year. But it's up to management to sort this out. You should put your leave request in, see what happens and take it from there.

I watched you last hear around it. Hoe is it going this year? Are you planning to work or take one more year off for all that years you worked them?