To expect my daughter to have access to non halal meat

[Bushmillsbabe]

My daughters school now has only halal meat available for their school lunches.

I personally do not wish my child to have halal meat, I think its more cruel than other slaughter methods, however this thread is not intended to debate which is worse/better.

She is dairy and gluten intolerant, and her safe options tended to be things like roast chicken, the vegetarian options usually contain dairy. The pork sausages contain gluten so she would have the chicken sausages, she also eats burgers and meatballs but these are now also halal.

So if I don't give her halal meat, she is left with jacket potato with beans every day, which she does eat, but doesn't want to have every day.

I fully respect that Muslim parents wish their child to have halal meat, but am I wrong in thinking my dietary preferences for my daughter should also be respected and she should have access to non halal meat?

Long story short, this thread like every other thread about halal food is an islamophobic dog whistle.

So why does kosher slaughter come under the same law?

Please don’t use hackneyed insults to try to stifle debate.

Unstunned slaughter is an animal welfare issue. Any method of slaughter can go wrong by accident or if done by someone unskilled or unconcerned. But that should not be a routine option. Meat can be part of a normal human diet, but we should not subject animals to unnecessary extra suffering. That is recognised by the law.

I think you're incorrect.

The Islamophobia is in the threads. They NEVER complain about kosher slaughter. It’s always halal which is the issue.
To get non-stunned meat you have to actively hunt out specific butchers. Schools are NOT doing this.
And if you are a meat eater who uses a school canteen and thinks animal welfare really matters, well, I wouldn’t. The budget school kitchens have is not high.

The majority of people don’t register. That’s why the various animal charities run campaigns on standards in farming to raise awareness.
Do you check the takeaways you use?

YABU - ethics aren't really a high priority of the mass produced meat industry here. You're also woefully misinformed about the "cruelty" of Halal slaughter. You've clearly fallen for the anti Halal meat propaganda.

In order for meat to receive halal certification there are strict rules on how the animal must be treated prior to death. The animal has to be well-treated in life. It's also forbidden for animals to see each other being slaughtered because that's filling them with fear not love. You're also not allowed to sharpen the knife in front of the animal because that may scare them.

Reversible electrical stunning IS allowed, and is widely practiced here in the UK. The cut is made to the front of the neck to ensure a quick death regardless. Even without stunning it takes approximately 20 seconds for a cow to lose consciousness from blood loss, and around 7 seconds for a sheep (this can easily be fact checked if you feel the need).

In comparison, non halal animals are often raised in close quarters to each other with very little space, then transported to the slaughter house in overcrowded trailers. In the slaughter line cows can smell, hear and sometimes witness other cows being killed. There was a study showing cows can feel fear and anxiety so these conditions lead to mass panic and distress before the cows death.

One method of non halal stunning involves a bar that penetrates the cows brain at high speed. The other involves a bar that is pressed against their head but doesn't penetrate, but you have to get the placement accurate or else you don't kill the cow. An EU study in 2017 showed that over 12% of cows weren't stunned properly meaning they had to experience the pain of those methods again. Non halal slaughterhouses also cut the cows throat. Sometimes the cow wakes up because theres too much time between the stunning and the killing.

Just to add - I'm not Muslim and I don't eat Halal at home because there's no need to. If I'm out I don't care what meat is labelled.

I just don't believe in forming opinions without doing my due diligence and finding out ALL the facts. And yes, since I found out how horrific the meat industry is a few years ago, I do try and eat ethically sourced meat where possible.

If this is really about cruelty and not a knee jerk reaction because Halal=Muslim, then you should probably look into the meat industry further and consider vegetarianism or switching to only eating ethically sourced meat.

Thank you!

I don't use takeaways except the local chippy, and tend to only get a portion of chips. I actively avoid halal meat. I also hate that it's seen as the norm.

But why do you think it’s more cruel than other forms of meat? Why only halal mentioned? Kosher is killed in the same way?
The meat served in English schools will have been stunned. It can be stunned and still be halal.

Why do you think religious people “can’t” eat meat that isn’t slaughtered in a certain way?

Surely the correct modal verb would be “won’t”, just the same as anyone else who “won’t” eat meat if it’s slaughtered a certain way.

Why do you think believing a man in the sky saying they can’t is a more worthy of respect and prioritisation than them coming to their own conclusion and making their own decisions about the morality of slaughter practices?

Kosher meat isn’t provided in schools except for Jewish schools. It costs too much money.

I can’t imagine people complaining about something they never come into contact with.

The dairy industry is in theory cruel.
Cows are forcefully inseminated and then sob when their calves are taken away.

This is a very good, well informed post.

I am vegetarian but my son isn’t, and I do let him have meat at school because I mainly want him to have a cooked lunch. But I’m not kidding myself it’s ethical either way. I think he often chooses the baked potato though, as he’s very fussy!

What happens to the bits of the cow that aren't Kosher? The sirloin isn't kosher, does it get thrown away or does it go on the shelf like a steak from a non kosher killed animal?

I am very intrigued by how we allow and excuse certain behaviours if they come under “religious reasons” but are repulsed by the exact same behaviour if it is not for religious purposes. Especially if the person arguing “for” and defending the religious reasons is in fact atheist.

It first occurred to me in a safeguarding meeting when I was teaching. We had concerns about a family who were encouraging their children to fast until a certain time of the day for health reasons. At the same time, we had no problem at all with parents encouraging their children to fast for much longer periods of time, and without water, for Ramadan. I realised that we have different levels of protection for children depending on their ethnicity/ religion, and that was the starting point of me questioning whether I could continue in our education system.

Children aren't allowed to fast until they have reached puberty.

Could you give any other examples of how we excuse certain behaviours due to religion?

That’s absolutely not true.
I’ve seen children in primary school be “encouraged” by their parents to fast. By secondary, so aged 11-12, all the Muslims students fasted. The pressure on them was enormous. Furthermore, it would STILL be considered a safeguarding issue if a child was expected to fast for hours of the day, including the expectation to go without water, even if they had gone through puberty if they were non-religious.

Another example would be how strictly controlled and monitored the girls were. We had girls who were not permitted to leave the house except for school. Girls who had been promised in marriage and taken to Pakistan while still in year 9. Girls who were never permitted to speak to male students they were not related to.

If a non-religious, white girl was told her parents had chosen her a husband already, at the age of 14, there would be immediate intervention.

If a non-religious, white girl got in trouble at home for simply speaking to male students, there would be safeguarding concerns.

If a non-religious, white woman was told she was not permitted to leave the house without her husband’s supervision, we would call it domestic abuse.

Yet, under the guise of religion, it’s all excusable.

In our staff canteen most of the meat served has gone Halal and nobody cares.

To your point people who are very concerned about the provenance of their meat likely is not eating from the canteen. And the rest of the meat eaters don’t care. It’s not like before they served halal they were besieged with people asking them to confirm they only use ethnically reared / free range meats.

I am not criticising those who do care: but as I wear and eat animals and eat actively cruel things like foie gras - I cannot really make a logical reason why I need to avoid Halal.

(I think my workplace switched simply to capture more customers. All about money which it always is.)

In that case I'm sure you'd agree that having halal meat is pointless anyway? Because it's cruel either way.

kosher doesn’t get mentioned because it’s not haha rammed down people’s throats.

You don’t send you child to the school down the road to suddenly find all the meat is Kosher, you don’t go to kfc and oh no all the meats Kosher. You have to actively search out Kosher meat and restaurants so you don’t have to actively avoid it if you don’t agree with it.

If suddenly all school dinners where Kosher I’m sure they it would be all about how Kosher is bad, but they are not it’s school meals all being Halal which is why that’s what is being complained about.

There should be referral for ANY child promised to be married at that age. It is our legal requirement to do so.

Halal meat should be banned from schools. I don't see any reason why religious superstitions should be pandered to by publicly funded institutions. Pupils should be given a vegetarian option if they don't want to eat normal meat.

Those pesky modal verbs again. “Should” isn’t enough in practice www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-64873897.amp

Any member of staff not referring it is leaving themselves open to prosecution. Safeguarding is everyone’s job and the assumption is ‘it could happen here’.
It is NOT acceptable for people to ignore this for any reason.

Referring something doesn’t automatically create change.
A girl goes on holiday to Pakistan and doesn’t come back. Is withdrawn from the school register, when you ask why, her friends say she is now living in Pakistan and married.

We refer it and then what?

Before getting into the religion debate itself. Forced marriage is explicitly prohibited in Islam.