Child identifies as a wolf ... WTF?

[Portakalkedi]

Just on Radio 4 now, discussing a child in secondary school who identifies as a wolf, and the school is going along with this. AIBU to think the world (or at least the UK) has gone mad? If said child is living in the woods, catching its own prey etc etc, howling and running with other wolves, which I doubt, then why the hell is anyone going along with it? They are also saying that some others identify as dogs or cats etc. And here was me thinking men 'identifying' as women was bad.

Goodness. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick with that teacher.

Having "a serious conversation about trans issues in school" is not the same as "promoting sex change to children". Of course teachers are going to need to talk to students about trans issues, not least because it's a divisive topic that teenagers discuss amongst themselves often.

Unless you are suggesting a return to the section 28 type of model? Most people now accept that approach really did nothing apart from cause gay people to be shamed as children.

You appear to be suggesting that 'intersex' people (or people with Variations of Sex Characteristics, or Disorders/Differences of Sexual Development) are new sex categories.

They are not. Humans are sexually dimorphic. Chromosomal disorders do not mean there are more than two sexes.

Here's Caster Semenya saying "My testicles don't make me less of a woman":

https://x.com/RileyGaines/status/1721896581396607132?t=u3rbDt2MkFf1BExQSeinQ&s=19

How does this DSD link to gender identity, furries and therians?

The whole lot has been conflated under LGBTQ. But who gets to decide what is "nonsense" and what is someone's genuine "authentic self"?

Is it OK for Caster to be a testicle-owning "woman", running against women who don't have testicles? (The testicles don't make Caster faster, but the male body frame, male lungs, male efficient hip angle generating power to the legs etc all give Caster an advantage over non-testicled women)?

Is it OK for (transwo)men who identify as women to go to women's prisons? Should Isla Bryson be in a women's prison? We can't do "genital inspections" to make this choice as obviously that would be inhumane. Also, we're told that transwomen can have penises, so it's pointless checking anyway. Apparently we can't look at statistics, even though approximately half of transwomen in prison are in for sexual or violent crimes, because we're being transphobic if we do. What can we do?

Surely the logical answer is that:

a) we accept that some people believe they are the opposite sex, non-binary, furry, therian etc
b) we legislate on facts when thinking about sports and spaces e.g. keep women's sports for women, no transwomen in women's prisons, no conflation of DSDs with gender identity
c) we don't teach children that "everyone has a gender identity" in schools
d) we separate out LGB (fact) from T (belief) and Q++ (encompassing... anything...)
e) we provide evidence-based healthcare for anyone who believes that they are "in the wrong body" or that their body doesn't "align" with their "authentic self" (gender dysphoria, species dysphoria etc)
f) we recognise and call out the safeguarding risks when children and young people think that they might have a gender identity (including species identity e.g. cat gender) that differs from their body - we look for underlying root causes of the confusion in line with the Cass Report recommendations.

Unless you are suggesting a return to the section 28 type of model? Most people now accept that approach really did nothing apart from cause gay people to be shamed as children.

Please don't conflate being gay (fact) with someone thinking that they might be "in the wrong body" (belief).

Schools should always teach tolerance of others' differences. Section 28 was abhorrent and homophobic. Thankfully it's in the past.

Being gay won't result in anyone removing body parts or taking synthetic hormones that increase their risk of cardiac failure (testosterone in a female body) or testicular cancer (puberty blockers in males).

The new KCSIE safeguarding guidance for schools makes it very clear that LGB and T (now called "gender questioning") are two very different things. Any teacher who isn't aware of the significant risks associated with gender questioning children shouldn't be talking to students about gender identity at all.

😂

Why is it that transactivists throw around Section 28 allegations so irresponsibly? Expecting teachers to be aware of the dangers of casual conversations with mentally vulnerable unwell children thinking they're born in the wrong body is nothing to do with Section 28 (and as a lesbian teacher who actually taught in schools during Section 28 I'm fully aware of what happened).

Have a look at my post at 10.05 for information regarding professional dangerousness - when adults dabble in mental health issues with no qualifications.

I think 'you've heard' is the salient point here...

Have a look at my post at 10.05 for information regarding professional dangerousness - when adults dabble in mental health issues with no qualifications.

Exactly this.

Many people on this thread are saying that a child who believes they are a different species (therian identity) is likely to be suffering from underlying mental health issues and a child who identifes as a furry is at risk of being pulled towards a community where the lines between fetish and innocent fun aren't always clear.

However, common sense seems to fly out of the window when we start talking about those same risks in relation to gender identity. It's like there's an unwritten rule that some beliefs (god, gender identity) can be fact and others (species identity, trans racial, trans age) must always be "nonsense". To propagate this, trans rights activists jump in to bring conflation and confusion: Section 28, DSDs and so on.

Anyone who raises concerns about this conflation is shamed as a transphobe - at this point you've got 3 choices:

1. to go all in and learn about why these conflations are unhelpful (my post at 9.28 is an example of how much I needed to learn about DSDs to unpick this particular issue)
2. walk away ("it doesn't affect me", "live and let live")
3. champion some of it but not all e.g. "I won't accept people like Isla Bryson in women's prisons or children identifying as wolves, but transwomen are women"

Anyone choosing option 3 has to tread a very difficult path. Yes, you can slam people down as transphobic but unless you end up picking option 2, you'll eventually end up being called transphobic yourself e.g. if you try and argue that Isla Bryson wasn't "true trans" you'll meet someone like Emma Watson who says that "trans people are who they say they are".

Well it's far-right, obvs 🙄and apparently the far from far-right LBC have the deets - https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/school-pupil-identify-wolf-animal-persona-allowed-teachers/#primary

Parents pandering to their Therian kids are just giving them MH problems.

They're not furry animals, theyre human children.

A line needs to be drawn under thus crap

Yes.... however....

The distress that these children feel is real.

Where is the line on "pandering"? How can this be approached compassionately without risking the child feeling unheard or being persuaded by communities online that their parents mean them harm if they don't recognise their identity.

Should children be allowed to identify as the opposite sex (or non-binary) but not as wolves? What's the difference?

No school should be allowing this behavior whatsoever.

School is about getting along with others, taking turns, 2+4=6, plans for the future. They also have a role in seeing if a child is in danger or in want. And partner with relevant charities and governmental signups. Or hand out food themselves. Our local high school has a school pantry. I don’t know about over there but at age 9 or 10, maybe 12 suddenly they are getting girls to abortion clinics during school hours without telling a parent or getting permission but can’t give a child or allow a child to bring midol to cope with period pain. Only meds a doctor has written can be handled out in school. Not even carried by a student it must go from parent to nurse. Schools hand out free tampons to boys. Now they are ‘supporting” snd facilitating gender transitions to include hormone treatment and surgery. When my son became 12 suddenly the doctors office outside school needed him to sign forms. I’m like he is a minor and can’t sign contracts. The woman said oh it’s more for 12 year old girls who are pregnant. Fair enough she would then be the baby’s mom. Planned parenthood got into hot water for males bringing 10 year olds and other under age of consent to abortion clinics and they are not communication with police but getting rid of the evidence this step parent, parent’s boyfriend, uncle was raping this child. Could a teacher or coach be doing the same? Usually just other kids being dad most the time. But you see how goofy it is. A school is a place of education and a place that forms a person. A few seminars is not enough to be experts in schizophrenia, substance abuse, suicide, teen pregnancy, human sexuality and identity. Some hubris schools possess to think they can single handedly mange an 8 year olds hormone treatment to block puberty so they can get remove their penis later and form a hole in their body their penis will be turned inside out to line it needing constant insertion by plastic things for it to remain open and to be rendered sterile in the process. My son has special needs, we are not guardians at this point but the lawyer was saying what it entailed. One thing I was happy about for the protection of disabled people a guardian can’t decide on sterilization on their own. A judge needs to agree. I was happy for the protection given the eugenics programs that lasted until the 80’s in one state. They also extended to the poor or the kids of poor and disabled even when nothing “wrong”. The people deluding themselves into thinking they were provided a service for humanity at the expensive of vulnerable people. People have a natural right to procreate. Sad history we should have known better. But “Ms Woods” at the grammar school could facilitate a medical process for a child of anyone’s that would make them sterile at age 8 medications and 12 surgically? How can this be allowed? How can someone opposed be called a hater? It’s not conservative Christian’s who vote against abortion in their state that are hostile to the LGBT, etc… community. Just think if there were a parental test for gender identity or homosexuality the liberal secular world would be like Iceland and downs. People for abortion would abort. Check travel government guidance around the work for women’s and LGBT traveler’s and where there is danger for them. It’s not the west. But the west gets all this hate and pushback on issues that really are not present. The west simply permits people to express themselves. Those place that should get pushback are placed that don’t allow it.

"The distress that these children feel is real".

And that is the problem. Because we have created a world where feeling distressed that you are not being taken seriously in your self id as a Fox is a 'thing'. NOONE should be getting distressed about this. A child shouldn't even have the concept of 'self id' in their heads. A child who says that they are an animal should be treated kindly but with reality very much in mind:

"Oh you want to PRETEND to be a fox today - lovely. We can have tea in the garden where you feel more at home this evening as a treat" - fine.

"You say you ARE a fox and are refusing to eat anything that hasn't come from the bin?" NOT FINE, and this is the point at which you should start to parent and be the adult in the room.

These kind of nonsense is insidious, when it actually needs a firm and clear response from the get-go.

Agreed. But the firm fairness does need to come with compassion and listening, given the influences that have led to the self-ID and the potential for other underlying mental health issues.

The same principle applies to any self-ID, whether it's transspecies or transgender. In the case of species, unpicking this is a lot easier, but in theory it should be just as simple to say "unfortunately it's impossible to know how an animal from another species feels" as "unfortunately it's impossible to know how a human of the opposite sex feels".

Sadly, we've got lots of adults telling children that they can smash sex-based stereotypes... by choosing to "align" their body with the stereotypes of the opposite sex 🤦‍♀️ We've gone from "great, you're a boy who loves glitter and Disney princess dresses!" to "if you love glitter and Disney princess dresses you're probably a girl. Let's fight those transphobic bigots who try to stop you being yourself".

It seems mad that we can see it for what it is when children are identifying as a different species but not as a different sex.

I think the phrase is “good men stay out so bad men stand out”

A child telling someone they are the opposite of what they are should be treated as a lukewarm “0h”. Gender does not matter at the age of 3, age of 8. The cheerleeding and such does harm. Don’t know why that is such a hard thing to grasp. Time will tell.

The cheerleeding and such does harm

🎯

Absolutely. People forget that a big part of identity formation is exploring who one is. For girls who have been conditioned to reject their female body parts by society, who have had their parts sexualised and objectified, who have experienced sexual trauma, who have been conditioned to believe that gender equates with certain dress and roles, it’s part of development to disconnect from the body, struggle to understand the body and one’s place in the world and try on different identities in the search of self. You cannot impose permanent life changing medications, operations and procedures on a child who is still evolving. The child is too young to have grown into a solid self and that should not be taken away from them by adults meddling in the growth process

Gender dysphoria is a serious condition experienced by a very tiny percentage of the population. It’s not the same as being gay because it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It requires professional psychological help not advice from teachers or other well meaning individuals. The inner process of finding self that one individual goes on should not endanger or impinge on the rights of 50% of the population. Biological reality is a fact and girls need protected spaces to be girls in the vast variety of ways that presents. When biological males enter those spaces, girls and women no longer have rights

This is probably very outing but my very young GDD thinks she's a cat and meows.

DD also claims she's part cat as she likes curling up in warm places and sleeping.

Gender dysphoria is a serious condition experienced by a very tiny percentage of the population. It’s not the same as being gay because it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It requires professional psychological help not advice from teachers or other well meaning individuals. The inner process of finding self that one individual goes on should not endanger or impinge on the rights of 50% of the population. Biological reality is a fact and girls need protected spaces to be girls in the vast variety of ways that presents. When biological males enter those spaces, girls and women no longer have rights

100% agree with all of this. Very important points.

Thinking about this, is species identification really that different from Adults who identify as mystical beings/beings with supernatural powers?

Go online and you'll find a not-small-number of people who say they are fairy kind. They believe they are fairies. They decorate their houses in fairy paraphernalia and possibly wear wings indoors or at special meetups to make themselves feel good. They possibly call themselves by a fairy name that may or may not be secret.

Also even here on mumsnet we have a Witches Corner and ironically, from my fleeting perusals over the years it might possibly qualify as the most supportive corner of MN. People identify as witches and wizards in RL.

Neither or these things seems to prevent people from living otherwise normal lives.

Perhaps species identification is just on this same wavelength. From my prior investigations Therians do differentiate themselves from Furries and say they know they are not the animal but possibly were that animal at one point in a different life (open to being corrected)

See also people who have 'spirit animals' or 'Guardian Angels'

All manage to get on with life in linear society, have jobs, families whilst having their private view of themselves.

Trans identification which pushes the individual to do surgery should not perhaps be lumped in with them.

I'm not.
I'm saying I don't think a section 28 approach of banning teachers talking about "gender questioning" is the right one. I was replying to PP saying teachers should not be saying anything about trans issues to students. I strongly disagree.

Are you calling me a transactivist? As a gender critical feminist I take that as a personal attack so perhaps you can withdraw/clarify.

Teachers discuss all kinds of sensitive issues with students and manage it well most of the time. There is no need to "ban" certain topics, no good comes from that.

Except that not what the poster (me) said. I said that:
"Adults in schools are completely unqualified in promoting sex change to children. There should be minimal discussions about "trans issues" in schools outside of age appropriate discussions about protected characteristics, the human rights that all citizens have etc" .

Not a Section 28 approach as you so offensively suggest. But a nuanced and age appropriate approach that centres the welfare of children.

See how important it is to quote accurately rather than summarise in line with your own prejudices?