To think that non-binary candidates are more unlikely to be offered a job?

[GinnyPiggie]

I have a non-binary child in their twenties and they are really struggling to secure work.

It might be unfair of me, but I really think that in presenting themselves as non-binary, they are going to struggle to be offered a job with the vast majority of employers. Yes this might be pure discrimination but personally I'd be worried about HR issues and getting sued for saying the wrong thing.

AIBU to think that if you have a range of good candidates, you are going to be reluctant to hire a non-binary candidate because of the potential for issues in the office?

It’s literally in the OP’s second post. Do you ever actually read anything before falling over yourself trying to push trans ideology all over MN?

‘They present as non-binary by saying "Hello my name is <male name> and my pronouns are 'they/them'" (They are a natal female.)’

and then

‘Yes, largely. They are quite up front with the NB stuff though, which I think is not helping. As someone else said, I think if it was mentioned AFTER they'd had a job offer, that would be removing a barrier for them.’

That's one tribunal decision which isn't binding on any other courts and is, in my opinion, a massive overreach. It's reading something into the law which simply isn't there. (IAAL.)

It would put me off them at interview if they introduced themselves in the way OP described. Not such much discrimination as my twat alarm going off.

This

People don't choose to be trans

Yes, they do.

I hate seeing the comparison with race and disability. Nobody chooses their ethnicity nor chooses to be disabled and it’s abhorrent to be discriminated against on either of those grounds. You can’t handily identify out of being disabled or an ethnic minority, can you?

People do not choose to be trans. With the hate trans people get, nobody would choose to be. It is not a choice.

I imagine being non-binary would not be a problem, but going on and on and on about it in the interview and beforehand would be. People want to know that you're (a) capable and (b) manageble; focusing on your own differences in an interview will not demonstrate a, and will demonstrate the opposite to b. Lots of companies will play the virtue card and say they're all about inclusivity and diversity but ultimately it will the hiring manager making the decision.

No but it is though. Especially 'non binary trans'.

Why do they need to declare their pronouns upfront? Do they also declare their sexuality or marital status? I assume not, they're having a direct conversation, the panel will not be referring to someone directly with their pronouns, so I would tell them to stop because it just seems a bit of a performance to do something so unnecessary?

I would try my hardest to find a legitimate way to score their interview so that they weren't top. When people tell you who they are, listen. Potential incoming nightmare.

OP as a plus,
your child having a male name could get them up a pay band.
A new, equivalent female colleague of mine with a traditionally male name (she was definitely female) was given a starting wage 1000's higher than me by HR - to this day I still think it's because they thought she was a man. Then we argued to get mine brought up to her level. Win win!

The 2 non binary (men) I have managed were both 6ft big fellas, sometimes didn’t even shave, one used to come in in women’s clothes and fake boobs on some days, used to want to “educate” the office on being non binary and what it meant and asked should they be using the women’s toilets on their “femme” days. F no!! Won’t be doing that again. Glad when they both fecked off

No, it isn't.

✅ "Hello, my name is X. Nice to meet you."
❌ "Hello, my name is X and my pronouns are Y/Y. Nice to meet you."

Some protected characteristics are immediately obvious, some are not. You can generally tell if someone is a member of an ethnic minority or a wheelchair user.

The most obvious analogs are sexuality and beliefs. Job applications and interviews aren't the place to announce either unless they're relevant to the job. A belief can be an extremely important part of someone's identity - moreso than 'gender' in many cases. Many potential employers would be unimpressed by a person announcing 'I'm Sam and I'm a Methodist/atheist/gender critical feminist' etc etc. Two of that list apply to me, they're very important to my 'identity'. But they'd be completely and utterly irrelevant to whether I can do my job. I wouldn't expect an employer to ask me about such characteristics, it works both ways.

Protected characteristics certainly shouldn't be discriminated against but the professionalism with which a job applicant presents themself is a valid criterion for their success or otherwise.

I think people are probably worried they’re going to be militant and self absorbed. Of course not every non binary person is but there’s enough that people don’t want the hassle. Also the toilets could be an extra concern for employers. If I’m honest I’d be put off employing someone non binary (I'm not an employer so it’s just hypothetical) as I don’t see non binary as a thing and I find it self indulgent (sorry).

I would discount them as someone not worldly enough to know that the binary is a fact and that nowadays individuals can be as gender non conforming as they like without having to declare themselves as an identity that doesn’t exist. Therefore I would see them as a poor choice of employee and tell them to reapply in a few years time once they’ve got through this phase.

@Verv thank you. Interesting.

‘72 percent of managers said they’d contact the applicant on the control resume, but only 69 percent would want to interview the applicant whose resume contained “they/them” pronouns’

So a difference but possibly not statistically significant.

The difference is that my ethnic minority children don't announce themselves like this " Hi I am a anti-imperialist anti-colonialist vegetarian ethnic minority woman from the global South". If they did, I can see that they would be considered hard work in an already tough job market.

Similarly announcing yourself as enby/queer/ host of other identifiers irrelevant to the job would make you stand out and not in a good way.

The fact that your DD believes herself to be non-binary is irrelevant.

The problem is that by immediately announcing her pronouns in an interview, she is demonstrating poor judgement. She's basically saying, "I'm going to tell you this thing about me because I want to, and I don't care or haven't even considered whether it's helpful or appropriate in this situation".

THAT is the issue, and yes, it would put me off in a hiring situation, in exactly the same way as if someone introduced themselves saying. "I'm Mark, and I'm vegan". My immediate reaction would be an internal eye-roll, and my second reaction would be to think that they are likely to be self-centred and difficult in the workplace. Clearly, though, I would be completely and utterly unbothered by the actual fact of Mark being vegan.

For me it wouldn’t only be about workplace harmony, such an introduction seems to demonstrate their foremost focus and priority, whereas mine would be what they could bring to the role and their enthusiasm for it. That’s what I like as a lead in. Workplace etiquette can be sorted when in position.

Some employers might think ''we have an attention seeker here'' and be put off.

Who bangs on about their gender or what they ''identify as'' at an interview? No one unless they are a ''gender bore''.

People don't choose to be trans.

I suppose it depends on how you view it, @cakeorwine . Do people choose to be Christian or Muslim? A trans identity is as much a belief system as any other.

People holding a particular view of themselves and making that one of the first thing they say in interview means this is a siginifant part of how they engage with the world.

Would I hire someone Christian, Jewish or Muslim? Absolutely. Would I hire someone who asked me in interview whether I'd accepted Jesus as my personal saviour? Not a chance. I don't want the drama.

I wouldn't be hiring a NB person or a trans person. I don't believe for one second that TWAW and I wouldn't want to employ them or share my female only spaces with them. I also believe that NB people are mainly attention seekers and I wouldn't want the drama.

"They present as non-binary by saying "Hello my name is <male name> and my pronouns are 'they/them'" (They are a natal female.)"

If I was hiring, I would automatically assume anyone declaring pronouns like this person would expect to be able to compel everyone's speech to use their dictated pronouns rather than sex based pronouns.

I do not want to have my speech compelled or be obliged to compel the speech of any other employee - I see this as a breach of many peoples rights. I would not want to invite a world of pain and hassle into my company.

So on that basis, it would be a No Thank You from me.