To think that non-binary candidates are more unlikely to be offered a job?

[GinnyPiggie]

I have a non-binary child in their twenties and they are really struggling to secure work.

It might be unfair of me, but I really think that in presenting themselves as non-binary, they are going to struggle to be offered a job with the vast majority of employers. Yes this might be pure discrimination but personally I'd be worried about HR issues and getting sued for saying the wrong thing.

AIBU to think that if you have a range of good candidates, you are going to be reluctant to hire a non-binary candidate because of the potential for issues in the office?

The team I work on rejects any CV that comes in with pronouns or any mention of gender. We just can't afford the potential hassle for accidentally "misgendering" someone.

So, yes. Probably it will be affecting your child's employability.

If you have got bugger all experience then you need to demonstrate the right attitude and look like a good "fit".

People do have a sub conscious and that will impact how they perceive your child. It's unfortunate but it is human nature.

On a personal level I would be highly unlikely to employ anyone who appears to be overly assertive/up front about their minority status, the default is to treat everyone equally and try to accommodate individual needs (disability, childcare, caring) so it shouldn't be a topic which needs special attention in a recruitment process.

Well, yes it does.

https://www.springhouselaw.com/knowledge-hub/discrimination-bullying-and-harassment/are-non-binary-people-protected-against-workplace-discrimination

There's no need for them to give their pronouns on being introduced as they will not be used at interview. I'd see this as someone making a point which I would find off putting when the pronouns have no use at an interview and I'd think they'd be a potential pain in the ass as they'd have an agenda in the workplace.

Have you heard of the old joke about vegans?

How do you know if someone is a vegan?
Oh, don’t worry - they’ll tell you…

I know lots of vegans who aren’t like this and it’s a very outdated stereotype. It’s a very old joke from years back.

However, in my experience, you could swap out vegan and insert non-binary and it WOULD be accurate, unfortunately.

I know a few non-binary people and I find them hard work. They insert their identity into the conversation at every opportunity, just in case any of us have forgotten. I keep my distance tbh because I don’t have a lot of patience for this kind of behaviour.

The problem is that I haven’t met a non-binary person who isn’t like this. My name is unisex and on many occasions I’ve been mistaken for a man during electronic comms. Honestly couldn’t care less. I have found that NB individuals have a real obsession with their identity and make it the centre of their world. Everyone must be aware at all times about their identity 🤦🏻‍♀️

Probably also relevant that the NB individuals I know are young adults - and I can remember having ideological zeal at that age too 😂 Maybe the obsession will fade as they mature and maybe an older NB person wouldn’t be such hard work. But I doubt it.

I was having a conversation with someone the other day and they were talking about the difficulties a NB individual was having at university. It was hard work following the conversation because “they” was being used as the pronoun for the individual, the university, the group of tutors, and also for the NB student and their friend collectively. It took a while to work out who was doing what! The odd sentence here and there is fine to understand, but it was surprising just how difficult the conversation was to follow. I don’t think I’d appreciated what a difference he/she pronouns make in a conversation to differentiate between a person and a larger group!

Anyway, I used to recruit and like others have said, much would depend on presentation. I have recruited individuals who dress and present in a gender non-conforming way. No issue at all. But if their gender identity was declared, I think I’d find another reason why they wouldn’t be suitable. The workplace is hard enough without individuals wanting special attention and treatment. No one cares how you want to identify but constantly inserting your identity into conversations and compelling speech? I’ll take a pass.

Sorry OP, but if they’re talking about their NB status I’d say they’re going to deter employers.

If I had two equally qualified candidates I would choose the person who doesn't call themselves non binary because I wouldn't want to manage someone who is a proponent of gender ideology. If they were the most qualified candidate I would have no choice but I wouldn't be happy about it.

Generally in quite small and traditional industries, but lately pretty much anything that they have experience in.

people are deffo concerned that an innocent call of ‘night girls have a good weekend’ is going to land them in a law suit…

Gender reassignment, along with race is a protected characteristic. It's illegal to discriminate in either case. You do not need to declare that you are disabled, and you should not be asked. However, some protected characteristics are more obvious than others.

But just saying you're non binary does not come under the protected characteristics. You're clutching at straws here... It would not be obvious I was disabled. At all. I literally look (and act) the picture of health. That in itself is a major hurdle to get over. I still wouldn't introduce myself as "hi I'm name and I'm disabled'. I'd sound like an attention seeking wanker... Which is what those who impose their ideologies on others sound like.

You do not actually need to mention pronouns on your CV, nor do you need to mention them in interview unless asked, and OP hasn't suggested that their DC will do so.

I don't understand. You think your owj non binary child is challenging for an employer? In what way?

https://www.business.com/hiring/nonbinary-discrimination-job-market-report/2023/

Sorry, meant to add the first bit of my reply is a quote from @DadJoke Please don't anyone think I'm eschewing his nonsense!

Being non-binary is in fact protected under gender reassignment.

Who is saying that you have to go into the interview and say you are non-binary? You just introduce yourself and get on with the interview like anyone.

People saying that NB people walk into interviews and announce their pronouns are projecting.

Well, that’s the problem. No-one gives a damn about them being ‘non-binary’, but anyone who opens with a statement like that is ringing ‘troublemaker’ and ‘narcissist’ bells all over.

if they needed to mention it or were asked, that’s different, but opening like that is a sure-fire eye-roller. They might as well start with “My name is X and I’m the most specialest person in the whole world ever”.

Some protected characteristics are immediately obvious, some are not. You can generally tell if someone is a member of an ethnic minority or a wheelchair user.

Either way, discrimination on that basis is illegal.

But that's not what I said. John introducing himself as bisexual is a fair comparison because it's utterly irrelevant to most jobs. You can't look at him and tell his sexuality or not. And he shouldn't be hired BECAUSE he's bisexual either. So at the introduction stage, it's entirely irrelevant. The fact he mentions his sexuality, would be weird and a sign at least that socially, he might not quite be on a par either what a business needs.

Same as introducing yourself as non binary. It's not relevant. And an interviewer doesn't need your third person pronouns, because they'll be using the second person single pronoun that is, handily, gender neutral.

Maybe at the end of the interview when they ask if you have any questions, maybe turn it could be brought up in terms of asking about the workplace, but as an introduction, it sends an entirely different message.

OP, it is sad, but all the NB people I know have worked in their jobs for years, no drama, they just crack on and have nice friends and a good life, they are accepted and happy. But finding a supportive employer is key.

Mumsnet is not the place to come for advice because people will make you fearful for the future life of your child in this world and the hate, vitriol and judgement they will face. But it is a horrible bubble, and not the real world thankfully.

Can I suggest politics for your child? There is a website called 'workforanmp'. There are lots of supportive MPs looking for constituency and London staff right now, most parties have active LGBTQ+ groups, and politics in general (labour, green or Lib Dem) is generally pretty OK. Just check the parliamentarian's record that they are not GC.

The vast majority of jobs wouldn't know they are non binary, unless they clearly stipulate on the main part of the application form or on their CV.

No as someone who has so many people come in looking for jobs last year and am now back job hunting again, it’s just tough out there. I feel so bad for my 16yo, everyone wants two years experience or else are looking for volunteers or interns. Hope your child gets sorted

Umm, @DadJoke yes she did above. Daughter introduces herself with name and then pronouns.

If they just turned up with a unisex name or an indeterminate appearance but were a good candidate, that would be fine. But the announcing of their gender identity would put me off tbh, as it would if they introduced themselves with any irrelevant identity type information. It makes workplace drama seem more likely and I need my team to gel.

I would avoid hiring someone who said they were non binary yes, for exactly the reasons you stated. I'd also question the intelligence of anyone who couldn't accept basic biological mammalian facts, instead thinking phony "scientific" research holds any weight whatsoever.

I think they'd be fine till the pronouns are announced - male dress and name wouldn't be out there.

Announcing pronouns at an interview - where you or I or name would be more commonly used does suggest problematic.

If once offer the job tuning up and making preference known would get complied with. I think it will depend on the industry but the announcing of pronouns would be my guesses - if it's not wider issues getting a job in current climate.

So you'd not be happy to hire a trans person and wouldn't choose a trans person if you had to choose between 2 equally qualified people.

And people wonder why trans people face discrimination in the workplace.

People don't choose to be trans.

its possible they could be hired as part of the tick box exercise, or that said some rightly or wrongly could also avoid hiring them due to perceived or presumed issues