To think that non-binary candidates are more unlikely to be offered a job?

[GinnyPiggie]

I have a non-binary child in their twenties and they are really struggling to secure work.

It might be unfair of me, but I really think that in presenting themselves as non-binary, they are going to struggle to be offered a job with the vast majority of employers. Yes this might be pure discrimination but personally I'd be worried about HR issues and getting sued for saying the wrong thing.

AIBU to think that if you have a range of good candidates, you are going to be reluctant to hire a non-binary candidate because of the potential for issues in the office?

Well if your child is recieving forms and theres a checkbox for sex saying "Male" and "Female" and she has a massive tantrum over it because she's actually "nonbinary", employers are probably going to think shes a bit unhinged.

The fact that the girl is choosing to identify as a nonbinary is a red flag that she could be high maintenance and pick a lot of fights with the rest of the team.

Yup!!
“I’ve never felt more non binary in my life” a friend wrote on her Facebook. She also has days where she’s “boy mode” and dresses like a boy or “girl mode” where she wears a dress 😵‍💫

Yeah I get all that, I didn't misunderstand at all @BrokenSushiLook 🤔

I can see why, from your child's perspective, this would seem necessary to get out of the way up front - similar to how you'd probably correct an interviewer that mispronounced your name, or how you'd ask an interviewer to call you by a different name than the official one on your paperwork, such as a diminutive or your middle name if that's what you normally use. It definitely feels different from announcing that you're a Sagittarius or from Yorkshire or a dog mom or Rastafarian, because your name is something everyone needs to get established pretty quickly. It's likely to be used during the interview and if you leave it and then correct it later on, you risk the embarrassment of the interviewer who has been calling you the wrong name. (But I still wouldn't start out an interview preemptively explaining how to pronounce my tongue-twister Gaelic first name "because everyone always gets it wrong"; I'd wait and correct only if and when needed.)

Third person pronouns, though, are a little different from names as they're usually used to refer to someone when they're not in the room, although there are exceptions to that. I'd suggest, in an interview context, leaving it until it comes up/someone has assumed incorrectly - for example, if the initial interviewer brings in other staff members and tells them, "this is Kevin; she's interviewing for the Client Services Rep position" then it feels more natural to say "I prefer they instead of she" and to explain further if asked. If it never comes up, there will always be an opportunity to clarify after being hired.

If I met someone in a professional context and they looked female and introduced themselves as Kevin (using your example) I wouldn't bat an eyelid.
Same scenario but they introduced themselves as Kevin and immediately stated their pronouns if I'm bring really honest it would jar.
I would have no problem if someone I was working with told me their pronouns, particularly if they were relaxed and pleasant when they did this.
Until the day when everyone initially introduces themselves as name plus pronoun I think this is not helping them get a job,
Best wishes to them for future interviews xx

I have rejected a candidate who spent at least 30% of the interview time talking about his sexuality and how he hoped to change the world by being out and proud as often as he could. He seemed to think the whole point of work was to promote his sexual identity and personal life, when the job had nothing to do with gender politics or sexuality - he had described how he always makes sure people know at all times who he was and he had to report people to HR when they didn't respond positively. His question at the end of the interview was what I thought of his sexuality. What did I think? - I don't care what you are but it's not the place to share personal information - I'd have been equally annoyed about someone talking about their religion, their football team or politics - it's not relevant,

So...shes a girl. Knew it.

Ginny, have you ever sat down with your daughter and tried to ask/understand why shes decided to go down this route? Surely she knows that you dont have to be all pink and "girly girly" to be a girl, and her interests dont change her sex?
Is she autistic?

I was under the impression that non binary meant "I have compared my personality to that of a male stereotype and a female stereotype and find I fit neither"
Is that not right?

For the record my youngest daughter is only six but everyone knows her as Ben (short for her more feminine name). But we always tell her shes still a girl, even though she hates everything "girly" and likes to be seen as "one of the boys"

I work with someone who I've been told is NB, while I think the whole thing is completely unnecessary and speshul pronouns are nonsense he just gets on with it and doesn't go around announcing his pronouns or making a big thing of it despite working in a very woke environment. There's no need for your dd to announce it, if her name is unusual for a girl then so what? I'd be mightily surprised if anyone said anything - my first thought would be that her parents wanted a boy! There's plenty of people calling their girls Stevie, Dylan, Frankie etc.

Anything civil service/gov I'd make a big thing of it, anything else I wouldn't. When it comes to getting a job it's a lot about playing the game IMO.

Unless they are applying for jobs in a sector that has embraced gender ideology, I'd say the odds are your child will be interviewed by a panel who to varying degrees think one or more of the following: There is no such thing as non binary. It is a made up thing adopted by people for attention. That calling a person 'they' or some made up pronoun rather that he or she is ridiculous and irritating to have to do. That anyone who expects it is a bit silly. That people who have an identity like this are often very easily offended and over sensitive. That the non binary identifying person is immature due to a strong association with teen behaviour.
This may be unprogressive and unfair, but when Joe and Joanne Average talk to each other away from those who might be offended, this tends to be the prevailing viewpoint Ime. So while it may not be so extreme as to make your child unemployable, it is unlikely to create a positive impression and help them beat competition and it is highly possible negative assumptions will be made .

how is NB a protected characteristic?

In limited circumstances their politics could be relevant, as you would not want a racist at work I would expect.

Oversharing personal information at an interview or in an application would raise to me a concern about keeping confidentiality.

It's hard for young people who've been constantly validated and celebrated for their gender identity to realise that in the real adult world, people view it as problematic or a negative trait.

I'm sure I'm not the only person whose views have changed over the course of this thread from being relatively neutral to thinking fuck no, imagine what a nightmare it would be to have this person as a colleague, after reading @DadJoke 's posts. Is he an undercover "terf", surreptitiously spreading transphobia around the internet by being completely insufferable? 😆

More like, its hard for young people who have been groomed into thinking that their interests mean theyre in the wrong body to realise that in the adult world, people will see them as their true sex and not care about playing along with their silly little pronoun game.

I agree that a huge disservice has been done to this generation of young people

So, you now wouldn't employ a non-binary person based on what I've said? That says a lot more about you than me.

My recommendation was not to introduce pronouns in an interview unless you are with a known trans-friendly company.

If they are picking a deliberately male name, isn't that kind of being binary in itself ? I would of thought a neutral name like Lesley would be more relevant, also saves having to front up with an explanation every time. Sometimes people look to make it a big deal when it needn't be.

Thank you for saying this. It really does make zero sense, and you've explained very clearly why this is an issue for an employer.

Just for the sake of the argument, ie not saying I personally believe this is right or wrong, the difference is that if I’m hiring a woman/ethnic minority/someone older, there is statistically very little chance that potential disruption/difficulties would be caused be them vs by how the existing team could be biased against them, not because of anything the new hire would do.
If I’m hiring someone non binary, isn’t there more chance that potential disruption/difficulties would be caused by their actions/requests?
To illustrate:
New hire is a woman, potential disruption could be that the men on the existing team try to make her take notes, make hot drinks etc. Very clear cut who is in the wrong, existing employee will be talked to/disciplined.
Or new hire is a black person, existing employee makes racist comments. Same, clear cut.
However if hire is openly non binary, they want to use the women’s loo and the women on the team complain. Not as clear cut.

I don’t know to be honest. Maybe that is still discrimination - I’m reading posts with interest as this is still a very new topic society wise.

IMO it is the parents’ job to tell their child if they are doing things which might not go down well in the wider world outside the peer group - especially in job interviews.

OP needs to be a voice of objectivity rather than cheerleader. Appreciate that may not make her popular with her DC.

It's not.

See this is an issue. my daughter is a lesbian. I am very aware of bigotry aimed at gay people.

Your daughter is a straight woman using a name that’s usually used by men. But no name has to be only used by men or by women. It’s just traditionally used by men. It’s not a male name.

Yet you and (presumably) her are saying she is LGBT? Despite her being a straight female?

And she uses miss as a pronoun? So she expects people to say ‘miss has gone on lunch, miss will be back at 1pm’ (as an example). Or do you mean she goes by she/her? In which case she isn’t NB.

'When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.'

I wonder, @nbartist: wrt meanings of words, would you say you identify more closely with Alice, or with Humpty Dumpty? Just asking.