To think that non-binary candidates are more unlikely to be offered a job?

[GinnyPiggie]

I have a non-binary child in their twenties and they are really struggling to secure work.

It might be unfair of me, but I really think that in presenting themselves as non-binary, they are going to struggle to be offered a job with the vast majority of employers. Yes this might be pure discrimination but personally I'd be worried about HR issues and getting sued for saying the wrong thing.

AIBU to think that if you have a range of good candidates, you are going to be reluctant to hire a non-binary candidate because of the potential for issues in the office?

I also agree. A candidate saying "Hi, my name is Steve" ..... no matter how they outwardly present is no problem. A candidate saying "Hi, my name is Steve and my pronouns are XYZ" would immediately raise red flags at interview as they are making their gender ideology the forefront of the interview. We are speaking directly to them, their pronouns are irrelevant at that stage.

I view it as no different to a candidate saying "Hi, I'm Steve and I'm Muslim/bisexual/a Labour supporter etc etc." It's irrelevant to the interview situation so candidates appearing to make that one of the most important things about themselves is of concern, yes. It suggests a level of navel-gazing that we just are not interested in.

This

There is a difference between hiding your identity and it not being the very.first.thing you mention when you meet new people.

Even if they aren't deliberately discriminating against your child (for the reasons people have set out above, fair or not) they might have various unconscious biases that mean they mark them down a point or two.

I appreciate you've said that your child's name doesn't seem to "match" their presenting sex but that doesn't mean they have to talk about it unless the panel bring it up. Some will just think "odd name for a girl but by far not the weirdest I've heard" and not even mention it. Others might say "oh, we were expecting you to be a man with a name like Kevin!" Or "that's an unusual name" - your child can just smile and say something like "yes I get that a lot." Unless they specifically say "that's an unusual name for a woman" they aren't misgendering them so no need for your dc to "correct" them. Its for your dc to decide where to draw the line.

Through marriage I have a "foreign" or "ethnic" surname that you wouldn't expect from my outward presentation - if someone is making polite chitchat- "that's an interesting surname, are your family from x" sort of thing im happy to talk about it - but I wouldn't dream of the first thing I'd do when introducing myself to someone, particularly in an interview situation, to be "hi I'm [name] but I'm not a Muslim!" Because my heritage and religion are completely irrelevant to my capability to to the job.

Personally I would treat someone who told me they were NB with someone who told me they were a certain religion, politics or liked Coldplay... if you can do the job then that's your preference.. just don't expect me to give you special treatment or try and convert me.... I really wont go to a Coldplay concert.

I don't disagree, the hate towards women is just terrible at the moment. More so than ever in my lifetime. If only everyone had the intellectual capacity to understand how damaging gender self ID is, and it's misogynistic consequences, it would be a step in the right direction.

I think you are making an excuse for why your child isn't getting hired. It is REALLY hard for anyone to get an interview let alone a job. Most companies would willingly want to hire someone who helps their diversity and inclusion policy not hire against it. At the end of the day its who can do the job best and frankly, are you not telling your child the reason they aren't getting a job is because they are non-binary instead of helping them with say interviewing skills? There isn't always someone else at fault.

There've been a number of people in this thread affecting to be surprised, astounded etc. Whenever I see people who are apparently shocked at the existence of differing views to them on the clearly controversial and divisive issue of gender identity, it always leaves me wondering what planet they're on.

We are all 'non-binary' when it comes to our relationship with gender stereotypes.

None of us are 'non-binary' when it comes to sex.

So it's really hard to take these identifies seriously.

I think what it actually means is gender non conforming. Which is absolutely fine and doesn't need declared on job applications.

In all honesty, I wouldn't employ one of these people. I'd expect all they'd do is cause trouble, wind everyone else up, endlessly go on about bullying and harrasment, launch a claim, be too anxious to come to work then go off sick 2 weeks after starting.

I always try to contribute to these threads due to all the issues my female (ftm) DC went through.
The OP asked if the pronoun and name was putting employers off. There is a firm concensus it is. The choice of the daughter is whether they chose to continue to bang that drum. Life is hard enough and most people are kind.
However to be LGBTQ brings out the bigots.
My daughter has a weird persona. Accepts female (that took years and maturity), uses a male name but the pronoun miss. Wants her own children and has a male boyfriend. I don't get it but that's non confirming as @ArabellaScott says.
These subjects have to be debated otherwise shadows form. Misinformation has already caused huge life changing issues in families with young chikdten. Lives have been lost.
I have always found logic, science and the law worked with my DC. Candidates personal lives are private and should remain so.

I wouldn't employ someone who announced pronouns when I first met them
I am not transphobic, just dramaphobic

Just as a quick aside - don't you think it's interesting that on the site you linked to, they refer to Ms Taylor, a non-binary person, as "she" throughout? It's almost like even they don't know what the hell they're talking about.

It's only separate if you believe in "gender identity" in the first place. A female person is a woman in reality.

I agree this probably will be an issue. Not because anyone cares how that person "identifies” but because it is a big red flag marking potential hassle and drama - likely to be someone who’s identity is their defining characteristic, and may be dragged into every issue, negatively affecting my other colleagues, customers, stakeholders and workflow. There are currently two people who identify as NB at one of my local sites. Other staff are actively afraid to engage with them as they are terrified of saying the wrong thing, especially as both parties seem very intent on finding offence wherever they can. This may not be representative but it is a thing.

@Mumtobabyhavoc And the hate continues...
It's astounding that people spend so much time arguing what another person should be, feel or identify as.

The only astounding thing is that you have come out with two entirely contradictory statements and yet presumably imagine you are both intelligent and kind.

Hint: What you have stated shows you are neither.

Second Hint: Are you going to change?

I'm not sure that it's about being LGBTQ, though, is it? (Your daughter is a straight female, by the sound of it). Nor that people who are wary about pronoun declarers are 'bigots'. Lots of people who call themselves 'allies' also use pronouns - the same issues apply for anyone who pushes identity politics to the fore.

Just the same as someone declaring 'atheist' is exactly as unnecessary as someone declaring their religion. It's not the atheism/religion that's the issue; it's the declaration.

Job market is bloody horrible for everyone at the moment. I'm qualified / 20 years experience in my profession but still can't get a job after being made redundant and have never struggled to find work before. So I can only imagine what a fresh out the box graduated with limited experience is finding it. In a tight market, employers will (legally) 'discriminate'on any old thing to get the numbers down for interview/ second interview/ appointment... location, previous jobs, whether you're used the same systems before, whether whether your mind went blank answerinv a question, whether they just like you more than another candidate.. so it's better to play it as safe as possible with any external factors.

I'd be wary of assuming the non binary thing is the reason for lack of job success in this market. It could be any number of things.

Non binary doesn't exist - you know it, we know it, everyone knows it. It's just a symptom of unresolved trauma and mental health issues.

Would YOU hire someone who plainly had massive issues? No I wouldn't either.

I'm a lesbian and think it's all bull shit

TQ+++ has nothing to do with being gay or lesbian and alot of us are sickos the association.

I guess I'm one of the bigots to you as I believe your daughter will always be a woman and has been brainwashed
But I'm part of the rainbow crew too

How is it being addressed in interviews, neither your child nor the interviewer should bring it up - its not normally relevant. Check if your child is addressing it in the interview. My niece is non-binary and it just doesn't come up in the normal course of things.

The only place it may appear is on the equal opportunity monitoring form that may come with the application form that is supposed to be separated before the recruiter sees it.

I'm not going to lie, I think it will affect some employers but they will never give that as the true reason, in the same way they avoid it with young mums, gays etc. It stinks but it still happens and its wrong.

What I am about to say is really wrong but needs must in this day and age. Tell them to apply for roles where it will be a benefit to the employer or try the Civil Service or NHS, I can personally attest that if they have the right skill set/abilities, it will not sour their chances. I have worked in both and lots of colleagues of many different persuasion where accepted with open arms.

In fact they wouldn’t even get an interview - I’ve no time for any of this and they certainly wouldn’t be a fit for my City team.

I agree @IDontHateRainbows. This is most likely the nub of it.

In my experience, most employers are looking for someone to do a job. They tend to be put off when you are more interested in telling them your personal beliefs than focusing on your ability to do the job. I could see employers being equally put off by candidates who share their sexual preferences, religion or political beliefs. Like PP’s have said, the fear of hr issues and disruption to business is probably keeping OP’s child from being seriously considered as a candidate.

OP’s child either needs to only pursue employment in areas that encourage their private beliefs or keep the interviews focused on the assets they can contribute to the business. If asked directly why they have a male name, but appear female, they can briefly answer that they are nonbinary, but would rather focus the interview on their qualifications. Unfortunately, there are too many people who publicly cause drama or file lawsuits over misgendering. I’m not getting into if they are justified or not, just that they cause problems most businesses want to avoid.

That your DC are struggling doesn't mean it is not harder for someone non binary. Just as it's harder for someone who is disabled or from some minority groups

First tier Employment Tribunal doesn't make law

You're right @Pluvia, it doesn't - but unfortunately this is what happens when some latch onto a "cause" and start spouting nonsense regardless of the facts

We see it on here all the time, with some slight inconvenience instantly labelled "discrimination" even when it patently isn't, and frankly employers have enough to do without this kind of silliness ... so why invite more?

no it's not....