To think that non-binary candidates are more unlikely to be offered a job?

[GinnyPiggie]

I have a non-binary child in their twenties and they are really struggling to secure work.

It might be unfair of me, but I really think that in presenting themselves as non-binary, they are going to struggle to be offered a job with the vast majority of employers. Yes this might be pure discrimination but personally I'd be worried about HR issues and getting sued for saying the wrong thing.

AIBU to think that if you have a range of good candidates, you are going to be reluctant to hire a non-binary candidate because of the potential for issues in the office?

No one cares about people's identities unless they make their whole lives about that identity. Then they just come across as a potential PITA.

If someone's got "they/them" pronouns on their CV then an employer is going to be assuming just that.

YANBU

if some one made a thing about being non binary at an interview I’d have concerns about employing them as it’s not relevant to the job. Same as if someone made a thing about their religion at an interview. I would wonder why they had brought up something irrelevant to the role and their abilities and assume that aspect of their personality was going to be an issue and create a lot of drama. Obviously I wouldn’t put that as the reason they hadn’t got the job but … it would be.

It’s not that they are non binary / deeply religious or whatever but I would question the maturity and stability of anyone who made an issue about an aspect of themselves that wasn’t relevant at an interview

How people express their "gender identity" through their appearance and behaviour is entirely up to them. The problem arises when they demand compliance from other people who may hold different opinions about the validity of "gender identity".

Pronouns are what other people use. If I had a choice of employment candidates, I would think twice about knowingly employing someone whose insistence on other people complying with their opinions might lead to workplace conflict.

Why do you think not employing someone because they’re NB is discriminatory?

Being non-binary isn’t a protected characteristic.

I have seen many employers (mostly anonymous because they’re worried about being called bigot or transphobe) say that they wouldn’t employ anyone that includes their pronouns in their cv as they don’t want to deal with the potential entitled behaviour.

Yes, I too have worked with very Butch Lesbians- not an issue at all as they were superb at their jobs.

Ditto obviously Gay men.

Their sexuality didn't come into it.

If someone's got "they/them" pronouns on their CV then an employer is going to be assuming just that.

Or they might think the applicant brings a group of friends to work, and they'll share the job?

If they want a job so badly and believe it’s harming their chances why do they feel compelled to announce this irrelevant fact apropos of nothing
“hi, I’m Sam” is really all that’s needed

You'd think so wouldn't you? But then that's coming from the POV that sexuality/gender identity is noone else's business, and that it's the DD making it so which is causing employers to worry about possible future issues

IME this is the point where some insist "They're forcing me to hide!!", whereas what they're usually doing is simply expecting people to get on with the job without dragging private issues into everything, which really doesn't seem too much to ask

And sorry, but applying to "quite small and traditional industries" was unlikely to end well unless she's actively trying to invite rejection to make some sort of point - and that probably won't end well either

Where and why would it be on her CV? I have never in all my years of working put my pronoun on my CV. If someone decided to put their unasked for pronoun (whatever it was) on their CV it would go straight in the bin. I’d never know I missed out on someone good anyway.

I can guarantee if someone who appears to be female says they are called Kevin, as an interviewer I would never say that’s an unusual name for a woman. What I would think is possibly NB or TG and carry on as usual and treat them with respect as what they choose to call themselves is their business.

As pp have said feeling the need to state pro-nouns as part of your introduction is the same as adding I’m gay, lesbian, bisexual, vegan, Christian, disabled, Jedi, black, pregnant, 55, 21 etc.

In most cases the interviewer should already know the candidates name and the only time they might question it was how to pronounce it. Kevin straight forward, Kamala apparently not so easy.

I know, but it's a name that tends to get picked up by girls who are confused about gender identity. I know several among my daughter's cohort with some really odd names. They rarely stick with traditionally female names but will sometimes pick a traditionally boys name for some reason.
It would be way too sensible to go for something traditionally both sexes like Sam or Chris

For goodness sake, how could you possibly take this from that post?

Its not about your identity, its about the showcasing of your personal beliefs or politics at an interview. That is what will make it look like you don't fit in.

Its also astonishingly racist to think that because someone is black they may not fit in with a white team! To even think that could be a comparator case is just effing racist.

How do you appear to be female in a CV / application? I've never discussed my breasts or vulva in either

We have a non binary male in our office and he uses the women's loos on days he “feels” female.

I work in a very “inclusive” place where we’re not allowed to say anything but I know everyone feels the same about this person. ie it’s absolute nonsense and he is a piss taker. Thankfully he’s not on my floor so I don’t have to share facilities with him.

(I personally feel it’s the exact opposite of inclusive and many women use the disabled toilet or go to other floors).

As a hiring manager if I heard pronouns in the situation you’re describing then I would mark that candidate down. I wouldn’t say it out loud but I would and I know many others feel the same way.

The Non binary male I work with causes nothing but trouble and I feel very sorry for his line manager.

Just advice you child to stick their biological sex on their CV and leave it at that. Mentioning it is the issue not the fact that your child is non binary.

Trans and NB identities often go hand in hand with a cluster of other things — autism, mental health issues and narcissism spring to mind — that can be challenging in the workplace, particularly in a small organisation.

A friend of mine who works for a small publishing company (fewer than 20 people) had a bad experience with a young NB recruit throwing their weight around as if they were the centre of the universe, telling everyone else what they should think and so do. That individual was let go before the end of their probation period and since than all CVs are carefully scrutinised and people with pronouns and anyone trans or clearly very woke does not get invited to interview. Anyone proclaiming their gender identity or with blue or green or pink hair is unlikely to find a job with them. Small companies/ organisations just can't afford to have someone disrupting things and possibly losing other, valued, employees.

OP, your son's best bet will be in the public sector or with a very large employer or in the tech sector. Although even in some of those large organisations I suspect HR is wising up to the costs and complexities involved.

Do they really have to mention it and make a song and dance about it? IF (and it’s a big if) it has been a factor in their lack of success then I would have thought it’s about how they’re presenting it/making a thing of it.
I can’t see why it would come up naturally. They shouldn’t have to actively hide it as such but why mention it.

But surely the level of fervour can be discerned at interview?

Surely someone shouldn't be discriminated against for putting that they are non- binary on a CV.

I’d never hire someone non binary. I’m afraid I’d just assume they were going to be more trouble than they were worth.

@GinnyPiggie

In the last job I had working in the office pre covid, in my team I had an very feminine young married woman who went by the name of George, 3 gay men and one lesbian. In a team of 10.
The only one where there was ever an issue was the one with the rubber fetish who did his best to be outrageous and very in your face about it.
I don't personally give a toss about anyone's sexuality. In fact I had some very interesting discussions with him about it. But, I don't think anyone, gay, straight, bi, non binary or whatever needs to be so in your face about it.
When interviewing it's irrelevant what your sexuality or gender identity is, I can't think how I would need to use pronouns in an interview. And I would never ask about a name.
There is no need to for your daughter to introduce herself in that way, so yes it probably would raise some concerns about how they would conduct themselves in the office.
Having said that if they were the best candidate they would get the job.

It's nothing to do with whether they are non-binary or not (which everyone is), and everythibg to do with how they're presenting themselves.

Everyone - except @DadJoke it seems - is well aware now that 'choose your own pronouns' is the thin edge of an identity that is misogynistic, homophobic and doing enormous damage to children.

So going in and facing any sane person and announcing that those are your political tendencies without even being asked, isn't particularly wise.

Have they tried applying to public sector jobs?

How would the interviewer know they were ‘non binary’??? Please don’t say they say this in an introduction about themselves… if so, it isn’t necessary and doesn’t need to be mentioned!

Not necessarily the best companies when it comes to fighting sexism of course, given that it is literally impossible to be trans-friendly without delegitimising the sex-based experiences, challanges and needs of female people.

Case law says it is.

https://www.law.ac.uk/resources/blog/verdict-trans-women-in-law/#:~:text=Her%20best%2Dknown%20case%20is,protected%20by%20the%20Equality%20Act.

You have anonymous CVs then?