SAHMS ON MN

[UBIA]

This is supposedly a site for mums - all types of mums.

On such a website, why is there so much hate and vitriol against mums who choose to SAH for a while?

The usual excuse for the storm of reactions is about financial vulnerability. Ok, I get that. But what if they're not financially vulnerable? How would you know? Bring a SAHM might have made you financially vulnerable - but you can't extrapolate that onto everyone else.

Why do people give anecdotes about some friend or their mother who was bored / insane / husband had an affair etc? Why? This is like saying "My friend had a job but she got depressed." So what? Also, if men are going to cheat, that's what they'll do anyway. Anyone can cheat in any type of marriage.

Why do people assume SAHMs are there for housework purposes? That depends on where / how they live and if they have cleaners, just like anyone else.

Why di people tell SAHMs their marriages are not 'equal?' Equality is about mutual respect. It has nothing to do with what job you do or money.

Frequently, people will say things like," Well, after my divorce the fact I was working meant I wasn't screwed." Ok, this is good obviously, but also, that's just you. How do you know the financial circumstances of anyone else - working or not? And why do you assume people haven't factored this sort of thing in?

Dime SAHMs will be screwed after divorce, sure. But others will not be. It depends on so many factors. Just like it does for anyone who works - it's all relative and completely circumstantial.

It is very odd that in a site for mums, the only mums that seem acceptable are the ones who don't SAH! MN is not like real life at all in this respect, it's very extreme (as I read it) because I don't know anyone in real life who makes assumptions about SAHMs or who would even care about this for 3 seconds. AIBU to think MN should be more open-minded and just live and let live without all the crazy assumptions.

If somebody posts wondering if it's viable for them to be a SAHM, then yes, fair enough, they are asking for opinions. Even then, I think it would be more normal to engage with that particular scenario, rather than the usual, "my mother was a SAHM circa 1982" or the hilarious 'are the 1950s calling'. Or people go on about everything having to be "50/50," as if this is the end all snd be all of life, with no comprehension that this is simply not practical or desirable for many people (if it can even be measured).

But what happens too often is, people post about something else but mention in passing they are a SAHM and then the whole thread gets hijacked by people going on about SAHMs. I don't think this would happen on other forums or in real life. Well, it doesn't. It's a distinctly MN 'thing,'

@BunsHun ”Judiths and Karens” ?

That’s the thing about posting on a place like this, no one can control what responses they may get. If someone brings up the fact they are a SAHM, it is usually relevant in some way such as they are feeling overwhelmed and it’s suggested they go back to work or they are unhappy in their relationship.

Some people do believe that 50/50 is important in a relationship and of course they will share that if it’s their opinion. Especially if a SAHM is unhappy with her DH not doing his fair share.

'50/50' is also a MN 'thing' that means not a lot in reality. Most couples have two parents who contribute and support each other in the way that makes most sense to them. If two people love snd respect each other for who they genuinely are and what they bring to a marriage - then it works. It just happens. Equality doesn't mean couples must do the same tasks all the time, or earn the same. This is a very one-dimensional way of looking at life.

Maybe younger people think differently now and it's people in their 20s or early 30s who mainly post on the threads. I don't know?

Hmm, in my experience and those people around me, 50/50 is what we're doing and seeking. I'm in my 30s and I wouldn't accept less, and I'm not sure I know anyone who would. I'm not sure if it's an age thing though.

For example, when I was on maternity leave I didn't clean the house or cook dinner while DH was out or WFH (obviously made breakfast and lunch). My job was looking after DS and DD, like his was being in work outside. We both cleaned and cooked when he got home. Same now that we're both in work FT. We get in/finish and do chores together.

It's very important to me to be with someone who doesn't see housework as my duty while he mows the lawn, for example.

Same.

It’s definitely my ‘reality’. Thankfully.

Because women hate women. We’re our own worst enemy.

If we could stick together we might have a chance

@yanksplaining to be fair, I think it's admirable that you chose to make a career sacrifice in order to ensure your girls are receiving the best care and support they need with their additional needs. That is absolutely what a good mum does. No one could say you're wrong for that!

What I mean when I say hate..

One of our major weaknesses is jealousy. We don’t stick together like men do, and it’s held us back.

This...isn't true. At least not for anyone I know.

There's an awful lot of accusations that get thrown around about jealousy when it comes to this topic, and from both sides. I can't speak for SAHMs/housewives, but from my own perspective as a working mother, I'm mainly concerned that other women are in a position to leave them in future trouble.

You see so many women with men who won't pick up their own socks, treat childcare like babysitting, and expect pats on the back. Or women who end up being shit on from a great height by their husband or partner of X amount of years, and suddenly scrabbling to find a job. Often poorly paid because they've been out of work for so long, and not progressing any career. Or women whose partners become ill, and suddenly the responsibility of earning falls to them.

There's no hate or jealousy. I don't hate other women, far from it. There's no jealousy; I could be a housewife tomorrow if I wanted to. I don't. 🤷‍♀️

I don't care what others do unless they have the opinion that their way is the right way. Both opinions can be insufferable.

From sahms I've seen

"My darling children deserved to have me home to look after them"
"Working for a man in an office would never be more important to me than being there for my family"

And from working mums I've seen

"Your daughters will grow up with no ambition and not know how to function without depending on a man"
"Your husband will leave you for a younger model leaving you broke and with nothing to put on your cv"

I think objectively, there are more risks and vulnerabilities with being a sahm in comparison to a working mum, but for some families that arrangement absolutely works out best for them.

Ultimately both scenarios open women up to scrutiny, but no one is helping with the obnoxious comments like above ^^

@OneBadKitty and @UBIA

You see this post is having a go at working mums and it really doesn't need to.
If you don't mean to, then you need to frame your phrasing better to be less judgemental.

Not rtft but it's quite simple really, women whose entire self worth is wrapped up in the status of their job and how it makes them feel a cut above get really fucking angry when that lifestyle just doesn't do it for others. Instead of respecting that people are different they want to belittle other women. I say this as someone high up who works full time in the public sector- I see loads of women alongside me who look down on other women when they leave work to be a sahm or drop hours/ have a day off sick because the kids are ill/ need to juggle their hours to sort the school run, it's very much the 'well if I can do it so can they' but it's often at a cost. I think some of them escape their kids by coming to work. I'll never drop hours or leave because I ha e ADHD and I find being off of work extremely difficult to get organised in, it's very pleasant for me to be busy and tired out from working and makes me very content at home but would I judge someone who is different and feels they can manage their life and the lives of their kids better by being at home? Absolutely not. The only thing I can vaguely agree with is if someone becomes a sahm and loses their get up and go at bit, stops contributing anything to the household or hates it and takes it out in their kids but equally people can be like that because of work too.

I have to say I agree OP, the MN trend of scorn towards SAHM has shocked me. Obviously it depends on which threads you read but I've never seen anyone criticise a working Mum here but people often poke fun at a SAHM. The irony is the majority of threads complaining about housekeeping and childcare and finances etc come from women who are part of a relationship where both work full time. It doesn't exactly sell it very well as a lifestyle either.

I think if you're a SAHM, you are more likely to notice the negative comments about SAHM's and the same for if you are a working mother with negative comments about working.

Especially if the comments are aimed towards you.

I've been called selfish, materialistic, asked why I bothered having DC if someone else is going to raise them etc.

I can't believe you have never seen any posts criticising working mums on here. I think @SouthLondonMum22 is right - people tend to notice the posts they feel are critical of them and overlook those which are critical of other choices, perhaps because they don't view them as criticisms but as genuine observations/questions. People are bad at seeing things from other people's viewpoints.

Oh there's certainly plenty of jibes aimed at working mums! Quite often in a passive aggressive/oblique way, eg. "I gave my child the best in the early years", or "I stayed at home because I love my children so much!" to "why did you even have a baby for someone else to rear him/her!"

It's irritating but it doesn't bother me unduly as my children are all adults. I can't see any difference between my kids and the (very few!) of their peers who had SAHMs. I've only ever known two SAHDs. I've a close friend who was at home for 20 years. Now she's in her 50s and knows she's screwed so far as pension goes. I have zero regrets and my children are very close to me - mostly in daily contact, instigated by them. My working meant they could learn all those instruments, go on those school trips, learn to swim, numerous clubs and societies, learn to drive... etc etc!

That’s the thing with Mumsnet, it’s anonymous, it could well be a man who’s criticising.Think it’s pretty clear there’s a lot of men on here commenting.

SAHDs whose wives work 45 houes a week have to do 100% of everything in the house. The house should be spotless.

SAHMs should get massive help when their husband gets back from work.

You’ve taken my post as though I’m judging working mothers which I am not doing at all. I’m saying that fundamentally as a basic need for emotional development children should be with their mothers. The world we now live in often makes this impossible for various reasons. Women often need or want to earn money and or have careers, this is due to an evolving society which is not what nature intended. I’m not saying it’s wrong, it just is.

I’m not saying it’s wrong, it just is.

Don’t be disingenuous. You are saying it is wrong! You have said that children need their mothers for emotional development yet mothers are often wanting to work. And it is not what nature intended (silly comment imo). How is that not saying it is wrong?! Own your opinion!

Generally, whatever mothers do whether they’re SAHM or working mums, they’re judged harshly either way. If they work and need to use childcare there’s accusations of being selfish career types/not caring enough about their child’s welfare/insert other offensive accusation. If they’re SAHM they’re lazy because they don’t have a “job”/not contributing to the household money wise/insert other offensive accusation.

I’ve been a WM and a SAHM at different times in my life as well as a carer for one of my children. Someone, somewhere always has an opinion on what I could do better. Usually this involves locating a Time Machine so I can go back in time and make different decisions, better ones in their opinion. Mostly I ignore the now very few people who wade in uninvited with their opinions. Other times I tell them to fuck off. Rather than tear each other down over this stuff, maybe we should all be telling more people to STFU.

What does nature intend then?

Because I'm saying that society makes it acceptable and encouraged. I do not think working mothers are wrong at all, I think mothers are expected to do every damn thing and be perfect at it. I think that mum's wanting to work has become natural as society has evolved. I have 2 adult DDs forging their way in life and I wouldn't dream of telling them not to have careers or go out to work. It still doesn't make it what nature intended mother's to be. There is the rub.

In this case that young children remain with their mother. and no I'm not saying that society is wrong for going against nature in anything but there is a trade off in some things. Progress in society is nowhere near matched in progress in us as a species.