Women are encouraged to have vaginal births due to…

[Undkonm]

1. cost
2. because women are not treated like men in terms of pain management

I have read (and also strongly believe) that the nhs encourages vaginal births to save money. A consultant has recently come forward to say exactly this. It is appalling and women are still falling for the narrative that vaginal birth is the only real way to give birth.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are huge risks with all medical intervention such a c section. But I know so many people who have ended up with an emergency c section and it’s been awful for them. In contrast, those I know (including myself) who elected a c section by choice had a peaceful and largely predictable birth.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women. I am glad I had the insight and confidence to push for what was best for me. I know other women who desperately wanted a c section but were pushed around and didn’t get to have it elected.

When will this end? I should add that I also strongly believe women who want vaginal births should be absolutely supported but it should be an active choice to do that, not the expected ‘norm.’

Do others agree? Do you have other thoughts on this? To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM.

Vaginal is and should be the norm!!! It’s not a f@cking narrative.

Are you also one of these people who think women should be called birthing people.

vaginal birth in the vast majority of cases is the best and safest option.
I say this as a woman who has never had a Vaginal birth but 5 c sections! I have never thought that my births were lesser or less real or authentic, just the best for my babies and me. Maybe women need to work on their own internal issues?

YABU because if women were supported to birth in a more natural way (by which I mean the environment, not having bright lights and constant monitoring etc) more women would have safe vaginal births with low levels of complications. YANBU to suggest that c section is discouraged for cost as I think it is.

As for BF, the lack of support is shocking. Women should be encouraged to breastfeed because of the demonstrable benefits for the baby but to do so without support is just making them feel like failures. I personally was encouraged to formula feed by health professionals when I didn't want to as were many of my friends. We should be ashamed of the breastfeeding rates in this country but none of that is down to mothers, just lack of funding to actually support and help women to do so.

A quick dose of reality:

60% of UK women now have an epidural in birth. This is significantly up on the epidural rate from 10 years ago.

4% of women say they didn't get the pain relief they'd planned to have because there was no anaesthetist available. 3% said they didn't get the pain relief they'd wanted for reasons that were unknown to them.

The caesarean rate last year was 37.8% in 2023 - up from 26% in 2014. That's an increase of 42%. The majority of the increase is from planned caesareans.

Some hospitals now have caesarean rates approaching 50% of all births.

There is no 'narrative' that is common currency that 'vaginal birth is the only real birth.

In fact if you want to have a caesarean or an epidural you're most likely to get consent for one.

However If you want a home birth or a birth centre - hopefully without interventions you're now significantly less likely to be able to have one than you were 10 years ago, as midwife shortages mean that many hospitals are struggling to offer a home birth service. Ditto access to a birth centre.

'Too much promotion of natural birth' is the opposite of what's happening in maternity services.

"To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM."

Women who intend to formula feed 100% will end up formula feeding.

Women in the UK who intend to breastfeed are often denied that choice by failings in postnatal care that leave them in a situation where many are forced to stop breastfeeding long before they'd originally hoped to. Many then feel angry about being encouraged to breastfeed in the first place. But the problem isn't 'too much encouragement to breastfeed'. It's 'encouraging women to breastfeed then not supporting them to do so' that's the problem.

Really, really sick of the culture war around these issues, which seems totally divorced from the reality of what's actually happening to women.

I was very heavily encouraged to have a vaginal birth, wven though I had a very serious car accident when I was 19 which left me with a range of injuries that at the time my consultant said I should never attempt a vaginal birth. Despite this being in my records, I was told that 'we'll start you off naturally and see how far you get'. I was too naive, scared to argue and had no idea that I even had a say in it at all. The words 'too posh to push' were even uttered with a laugh.

I had a 26 hour labour. DS1 got stuck, I was sliced to my anus and Ds was dragged out by suction. He was black from lack of oxygen, had to be resuscitated. I had a severe PPH and had to have a blood transfusion. DS nearly died, I nearly died and he has been left with brain damage as a result. He is 14 now and recently I looked at my discharge notes. They were altered. They said my labour was 8 hours. It fucking was not. I had PTSD and horrific PND. I failed to bond with DS until he was about 3. He has lifelong disabilities which I place firmly at the door of his criminally mismanaged birth.

Haven’t read whole thread but obviously vaginal birth is preferable.

When I spoke to the consultant for my elective with DD2 (had emergency section with DD1) she went through the risks, but then said 'Honestly, I could give you just as a long a list with the risks of a vaginal birth', which was sort of refreshing. She was great.

The issue is just that you can't ever tell what kind of birth you're going to get. I think most people would opt for a natural birth if they could be assured of a smooth one, but the reality is a high percentage of first time births in particular lead to interventions of varying scales, and those also come with risks.

Personally I felt that a section was safer for the baby but less safe for me, given DD1 almost died during the natural labour process, and I would rather have rolled the dice on me than on DD2, which was a large part of my reasoning. I'm glad I was able to make that decision for myself.

Unfortunately too, a lot of the reason vaginal birth is so much cheaper is because there's fuck-all after care when people do suffer complications from it. They're just left to get on with things or told to do pelvic floor exercises.

Nope, they really aren't higher cost. Many studies have proven this when you take into account the cost of negligence lawsuits and the amount of money spent on rectifying long term health issues caused by vaginal births. It is only when you look at the very short term that a vaginal birth seems less expensive.

Recovery time is a tricky one as it depends on your definition of what recovery looks like and is so individual specific. A straight forward vaginal birth will be much easier to recover from than an instrumental birth for example. If you are still suffering from incontinence issues a few years after birth (more common in vaginal births) then have you actually fully recovered at all? It is a fact that higher levels of pain are recorded 4 days after birth by women that have had a vaginal birth so it's a myth to think that those that have had vaginal births are swanning around happily after a few days.

Infection is clearly more of a risk when you give birth via a C-section but there are lots of indicators that C-sections can help prevent babies being starved of oxygen and other birth complications.

I don’t see other mammals giving birth in hospitals either, so let’s just go the whole hog and shut the maternity units.

Doesn't the baby consume goodness in the birth canal they helps with gut health? Also vaginal birth and breastfeeding are somewhat interconnected aren't they? Either way, out is best.

Was your c-section an emergency one? I've had two c sections, one emergency one elective; the emergency one was horrendous and recovery very long, the elective I genuinely felt fine after a week and it was a lovely birth.

I had friends who had traumatic vaginally births that took longer to recover from than my elective c-section.

I had an emergency C section after two days of attempting a vaginal birth. I did a prenatal course (at the hospital) where C section wasn’t even mentioned.. during labour when I pushed for epidural the midwife told me they wanted to wait as long as possible to give me the best chance of a ‘natural birth’!! In my very uncomfortable state I told her ‘all births are natural - no one is born a robot are they!’ And had the epidural. Very happy I did ask for it then because it took about 30 mins for them to be ready and I was in agony by then. Anyway.. two days later had a C sec. I won’t have any more because of the horror show that is my flabby body since having one baby - but if I did I would definitely have an elected C sec!!!

Another consideration is that the NHS is very cautious about having multiple c sections. I’m about to have my third and there is absolute consistency from midwives and doctors that a vaginal birth would not be safe at this stage - but that the c section surgery is more complex and risky due to layers of scar tissue. If women want to have larger families then the NHS is probably right to point them towards trying for a vaginal birth in the first instance.

I strongly believe a woman should have a section if she wants one. I have a serious concern that, if this isn't the case, women will be forced into vaginal births that aren't possible and will end in a section anyway.

In my case, I needed a c-section for medical reasons and I was still heavily discouraged by the consultants who were more concerned about there being more risks with sections than vaginal delivery... yes... but not in my case given the other medical issues at play. I knew in my heart that a section was the safest option.

They even asked a specialist in the other field for an opinion on whether vaginal birth was a viable option and he said he could give information for them to make a decision but he wasn't qualified to make the decision. I felt that was fair but the consultant decided that meant there were no reasons I couldn't give birth vaginally which was quite blatantly not what he had said!

In the end I just put my foot down and insisted it was booked on the spot. I think I only felt able to do this due to my extensive experience of dealing with doctors and I do worry what would have happened to another woman in my shoes.

They were so blinkered by their apparent policy to discourage elective sections that they completely missed all the risks associated with my delivery. In the end, it was a moot point as baby was delivered via a section with literally minutes' notice (placenta failure) but the stress the whole issue caused was ridiculous given my needs.

I do feel that if I hadn't had a right to have an elective section, then I wouldn't have been able to get them to book it, and at least one of us could have died or, at the very least, the entire thing would have been horrifically traumatic. In short, I totally agree there needs to be a cultural and attitude shift towards sections!

I had a completely painless vaginal birth as I had an epidural. No instruments or other interventions, no tears or stitches. Recovery was quick and easy. I had 2 elcs after that which were also painless with the epudurals, and I felt no pain with recovery as I was taking painkillers on a schedule. Recovery was slower than with the vaginal birth but that was fine as I had a lot of help at home so I could focus on recovery and didn't have to do much. I needed the c-sections for medical reasons and there was never any question of attempting a vaginal birth. Two years on from the last c-section, my body is scarred but functioning as it should, my pelvic floor and sex life is unaffected.

This!

Completely and totally this.

But isn’t it like any other kind of medical procedure? They will try the cheapest most effective option first?

This makes no sense to me. Surely almost all women would choose a vaginal birth? Better for the mum, better for the baby.

I don’t know anyone who wasn’t disappointed if they couldn’t have a natural birth. Grateful there was a safe way to get the baby out, but disappointed nonetheless.

"Look, the default should be a vaginal birth."

Why? The default should be what the mother prefers, surely? As long as that is healthy for the baby.

Assuming you had emergency c. Having had both emergency and elective the recovery is quite different when it is planned, MUCH quicker, less painful back to normal dinner etc. I very much wanted a natural birth the 1st time but the shambles of the nHS I believe resulted in my needing an emergency c section. I wasn’t changing it 2nd time so opted for an elective.

Sorry OP, not time to read your thread but wondering if you’ve given birth? You

" how many other mammals do you see having c-sections?! "

What a strange question? Natural isn't always best.

I found the recovery of my planned c-section took much longer and was way more painful than my vaginal birth, where I had both an episiotomy and a 3b tear. Your assumption is kind of that a c-section is necessarily more straightforward than vaginal and I don't think that's true. I also felt much more in control and involved with my vaginal birth, again despite it being quite hard going and heavy on the intervention in the end. My planned c-section I felt like a piece of meat rolled in on the trolley, totally at everyone else's mercy.

No one should be made to feel bad though. My best friend had an elective c-section by choice, she was so scared of birth and it was absolutely the right decision for her. It's just wrong to suggest one is easier is all.

Same friend chose to go straight to formula and again she absolutely shouldn't be made to feel bad - in my opinion no one needs to comment to individual about their individual choices. What's the point. However, breast milk isn't just a superior or more natural 'food' for babies, it's more than food and formula simply isn't a replacement. The only part formula replaces is the 'food' aspect and even then it doesn't replace it well. I find it sad that promoting breastfeeding is seen as necessarily making other people feel bad when it's really a best interests question. If it makes you feel bad to know breastmilk is better, then unfortunately that's some factual information and you need to sit with your emotional response to it. Also for what it's worth I felt there was lots of judgement around breastfeeding - in public, in front of others, and yes that the very act of doing it was somehow being mean to others. People were very free with their thoughts. Formula feeding parents largely get tiptoed round because no one wants to make them feel bad. Which actually is telling, when you think about it. Why would it make people feel bad if it's just a straightforward replacement?

Anyone considered the benefits to the baby of a vaginal delivery over a ceasarean ?

@Gwenhwyfar when I was a senior house office in obstetrics I spent far more time with the women having vaginal births than caesareans. With a planned section there’s not much to do. Epidural, operation, baby out, placenta out, close up, done.

With VBs there are a whole host of investigations and procedures to be done, the vast majority of which require a doctor.