Women are encouraged to have vaginal births due to…

[Undkonm]

1. cost
2. because women are not treated like men in terms of pain management

I have read (and also strongly believe) that the nhs encourages vaginal births to save money. A consultant has recently come forward to say exactly this. It is appalling and women are still falling for the narrative that vaginal birth is the only real way to give birth.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are huge risks with all medical intervention such a c section. But I know so many people who have ended up with an emergency c section and it’s been awful for them. In contrast, those I know (including myself) who elected a c section by choice had a peaceful and largely predictable birth.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women. I am glad I had the insight and confidence to push for what was best for me. I know other women who desperately wanted a c section but were pushed around and didn’t get to have it elected.

When will this end? I should add that I also strongly believe women who want vaginal births should be absolutely supported but it should be an active choice to do that, not the expected ‘norm.’

Do others agree? Do you have other thoughts on this? To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM.

Vaginal birth is normal and natural though- how many other mammals do you see having c-sections?! It's fair enough to say that maternity care needs to be better to reduce the number of emergency c-sections. But for the majority of women and babies vaginal birth - and breastfeeding- is better and safer.

Yes I was the same, did not consider vaginal birth at all. I’ve had one section and it was totally fine. But I do understand why some women really want to give birth naturally. I just don’t feel that way.

Agree. I have had a lifelong genuine phobia of childbirth, due to this I convinced myself for many years I didn't want children. When pregnant in late 30s, I was 'told' I was having a vaginal birth and an induction. I thought best to listen to the experts and decided to give it a try. Induction was absolutely horrific and ended in an emergency c section anyway, the recovery from that was pretty horrible. I wish I'd just asked for planned c section although hindsight is 20/20.
Oh, and during the induction I wasn't offered or given any pain relief whatsoever despite asking for an epidural throughout (I'd actually been advised in advance by the anaesthetist to have one early on). The emergency c section itself was bliss in comparison to the rest

This is such an interesting perspective. Myself and my NCT group had the complete opposite experience and were very heavily pushed towards inductions and c-sections. Adding to this, the statistics around c-sections in the UK would suggest that the rates are going up so we’re actually seeing far fewer vaginal births in this country.

Now, I absolutely believe that women should have choices, but equally as someone that works in this industry, I find myself increasingly dishearted by the lack of transparency when it comes to the differences between c-section and vaginal and why vaginal should be encouraged when possible. Babies are born without an immune system, but through a vaginal birth it is ‘seeded’ with a mix of bacteria in order to allow it to develop in a healthy way. This is not the case with c-section. Breastfeeding, and especially the colostrum that comes in early milk continues to support the strengthening of the immune system and adapts to provide varying levels of nutrients/antibodies according to what the baby needs. This isn’t possible with formula. And despite what is marketed, the truth is that formula is a highly processed food with synthetic nutrients that just don’t support a babies needs in the same way as breast milk does. The challenge is that often we don’t see the downside of this until years later when these children find themselves more susceptible to illness, higher rates of food allergies, eczema, asthma, common cold etc.

I fear I might get a lot of hate for sharing this, but it is the truth. I don’t for one second condone shaming moms/new parents about their decisions but I do think it’s important to understand what your child is potentially missing out on by choosing to have a c-section/formula feed. Again, I totally understand that some women need them, but if we’re electing to have them then we’re really taking a lot away from the child out of choice rather than necessity.

Personally I think we could do with more support for moms and young families to allow women the space to prepare for a vaginal birth and breastfeeding, along with more classes and support to teach the skills, but sadly a lot of us find ourselves having to rush back to work or manage several kids and a newborn without family support etc so I totally get the draw to having a c-section/formula feeding. There’s less guesswork. But equally, we need to stop pretending like it’s the same thing as the alternative because when it comes to health, development and recovery outcomes, the truth is that it just isn’t the same.

I hope this comes across as intended. Again, genuinely not trying to shame anyone. I really do believe we all make the best choices we can based on the information we have at the time, but being a researcher myself I’m just so tired of women being given poor information only to blame themselves down the line when they learn the truth.

But just to add as a pp said - perfectly fine to deviate from the norm. Wearing makeup isn't natural but many women do it, not always doing the same as everyone else is nothing to be ashamed of. Anyone that makes you feel bad for having a c-section is an idiot.

@Secradonugh

To be honest, c sections only cost more short term. The NHS spends more on medical negligence cases for births than it does on providing the services. The fact that brain damaged children are so expensive on an ongoing basis and brain damage is more likely from a badly managed natural birth than from an elective section means that in countries that have bad public healthcare options and lots of private obstetricians, those obstetricians often choose to provide c sections rather than supervise a natural birth for reasons of liability. I am not saying this is optimum, clearly it isn't. What the NhS should be doing is effectively triaging people - for most women who are overdue with a bigger than average back to back baby and don't go into natural labour, it's probably more sensible to offer a c section or an induction rather than just an induction at 42 weeks because the outcomes in expense terms of the risk of a long induction ending in a section are probably greater overall and the safety of an elective might be better too, so it should really be informed maternal choice as to whether to try anyway.

The issue with the NHS is that they do not have a good approach to data or diagnosis. I have previously had a midwife tell me that there is no correlation between having a big first baby and having a big second one. It is in fact, GD aside, the biggest predictor. There are multiple studies on it. It's annoying - the nhs has masses of data, but fails to plan its services using it well

I was coming to say this. ^^

This isn’t a good argument. No other mammal has remotely as high a natural maternal death rate as humans. It’s only due to modern medicine - all of it “unnatural” - that we don’t.

We also do literally countless things day to day that aren’t “natural”. Why should childbirth be the one area where everything needs to be natural?

Again, great for those that feel this way, but it‘s an ideological choice. I don’t appreciate the ideological preferences of others being pushed on me.

I can’t say I was pushed into having vaginal deliveries, my first DS there wasn’t discussion really as the pregnancy itself was simple. Unfortunately delivery was very difficult, long and painful as he was back to back.

My second DS measured large and I was given the option of a planned C section or induction prior to his due date, but I opted to wait and he arrived on time with a very simple vaginal delivery.

I do understand vaginal delivery is painful, but our bodies were designed for the process and pain relief in variable formats is available (I would recommend a TENs machine and only used gas & air with mine)

I do think if a caesarean may be needed then it should be planned and not an emergency, but I don’t believe it should be par for the course just to have one.

I do agree there is far too much pressure regarding breast feeding and this needs to be toned down.

I’ll not bite with a lot of your post- frankly there are too many misconceptions and ‘truths’ to unpick- but I wanted to ask, are you in the U.K.?

Your opinions, knowledge and understanding of the NHS maternity system is totally off point if not.

@DrummingMousWife yes but did you have an emergency c section? the recovery can be extremely different between an elective and emergency

I half agree with you as I do think they do many things to save costs including encouraging people away from elective c sections. I think maternity care in general is appalling in a number of ways that would never happen if it was men. However, I gave birth vaginally with an episiotomy which was grim but nowhere near as bad in terms of recovery as what I’ve seen some of my friends suffer with c sections. I’m very grateful I didn’t end up with one - it definitely isn’t the easy option and have huge respect for women who go through it (as well as those of us who give birth vaginally!) For that reason I do think encouraging vaginal birth is the best option but think women should be given an informed choice and not guilt tripped or made to jump through hoops if they decide to go for an elective.

@FanofLeaves I am in the UK. Can I ask what part you believe is off point? I’d love to know

I was advised to plan induction or caesarean for 39-40 weeks due to my age. I didn't know so went down induction route by default. By the time I had ECV of breech baby, 30 hours on antenatal ward with painful contractions, 17 hours on delivery suite, epidural, induction drip, then a rush to theatre for spinal, episiotomy and forceps delivery, I'm sure a planned caesarean of breech baby would have been a lot cheaper and significantly less traumatic.

I think a vaginal birth is the way we have evolved to give birth and should be the norm, rather than the majority given c sections as it is major surgery.

Of course, there are many circumstances where a c section is necessary.

In my opinion, it's unnecessary inductions enforced upon women for trivial and not well researched reasons, leading to a cascade of interventions and negative outcomes. The amount of my friends who've been induced due to GD, or being older, or being 7 days overdue in case the placenta 'fails', and had crap outcomes is ridiculous.

@Yellow23 Your post is really interesting and I don’t disagree with what you say. I am quite sure breast milk is far superior than formula and I am aware of the benefits for the baby of vaginal delivery that is not achieved with a c section. I actually knew all this before I elected my c section. I feel I made an informed choice.

Your post does really got to the heart of what I was referring to, though. It is essentially forcing your views on women. I understood what choices I was making and I, or any other woman - shouldn’t be subjected to opinions as written in your post when it is via the NHS. I am all for Freeform of speech and accept that your opinion is valid and I may come across it in life (as I have here), but I don’t want to hear that, nor should I have to, nor be pressured to do what you say in a medical context … Which is what is still happening to women.

Because it's natural and in most cases best for mum and baby. I can't see what it's got to do with pain management.

Had three of the four types of birth, one vaginal with intervention, one no intervention vaginal and one emergency c-section. All babies were back to back, because that's apparently the way I do delivering a baby !

The no intervention vaginal was by far the easiest from a recovery point of view, the vaginal with intervention one was the hardest, took longer to stitch me up than it did to deliver the baby and the section was 2nd place, although I imagine a planned section would be far easier, as no recovery from a GA or massive blood loss to contend with.

I think the best birth is the one where Mum and baby are fine afterwards, regardless of how that actually happens, be it through the foof or through the sunroof.

I've had 4 straight forward vaginal births. Yes childbirth is risky but the majority of women are absolutely fine giving birth naturally.

I wasn’t even aware, until after I’d had a C-section, that some women are so hard on themselves for not being able to have a vaginal birth. I still don’t get it; to me, it’s like being hard on yourself because your pancreas stopped making insulin.

I had two C-sections, one with a breech baby and one because my water broke and my cervix wasn’t even remotely dilated hours later. I didn’t love the recovery, but I was extremely freaked out by the prospect of vaginal trauma, so I was glad it worked out the way it did.

I’m interested by the use of “natural birth” here; it must be a cultural difference, because in the US, people usually use that term to mean “vaginal birth with no drugs or interactions.” I’m not a fan of the term either way, because the opposite of natural is, of course, unnatural.

Recoveries from C-sections vary in the same way that recovery from a vaginal birth varies. For some women a C-section literally is the easiest option as the alternative is death or long term physical damage from a vaginal birth. Other women breeze through vaginal birth and would have a much worse recovery and more long term health impacts if they opted for a C-section. The problem is, none of us know which category we fall into...

For this reason I think it's vital that women are given strong data on the short, medium and long term risks associated with each mode of delivery and make a fully informed decision. The fact that someone on this thread has already said that C-sections are more expensive highlights that people also need to be educated on the true financial costs associated with birth too. A vaginal birth will almost always be cheaper in the very short term but studies looking into the longer term have shown that they cost the NHS more money than C-sections.

I personally prefer to have vaginal deliveries because a c section is a major operation and I figure while the vaginal deliveries were very painful that part was over and then I “only” had to deal with the after pains and the recovery. My sister who had an emergency section and an elective had after pains, stitches and the pain of having an operation afterwards. I recovered physically a lot quicker than she did. I’m currently pregnant with my 3rd. If my consultant tells me I need a section I’ll of course have one, but otherwise I want to give birth and get the fuck out of that postnatal ward asap. Absolutely hate them.

I’m guessing that as far as the NHS preference goes, cost probably does play a part. As cost plays a part in most aspects of our health service. It shouldn’t, not at the detriment of patients. But it does. And I do think that any department that caters solely for women- eg maternity care and gynaecology, are particularly neglected. At least in my experience. A friend of mine needs treatment for her endometriosis and due to the 7 year waiting list in our trust for an operation, has been forced to take out a loan she can’t really afford and go private. In her own words “I’ll fucking kill myself because I can’t go on like this”. It’s shameful that people (in this case women, who else?) are neglected the way they are.

Why should you not have to hear about it? What a ludicrous thing to say. You think medical professionals should just say - on your own mate, you decide? What if it was a choice between two different surgical techniques for removing a tumour? Still shouldn't be informed no?

Induction was absolutely horrific and ended in an emergency c section anyway, the recovery from that was pretty horrible. I wish I'd just asked for planned c section although hindsight is 20/20.

and this is why I feel so many woman are opting for an elected c section, some induction methods sound barbaric

Hi, not the person you were addressing but I would like to say I had an ELCS due to breech presentation and the recovery was extremely brutal. It was so traumatic that the possibility of having to have a c section again in the future with future pregnancies has put me off having the courage to try for another child. I had no complications as such - at least not according to the medical staff but the pain was so severe and it lasted for so long. I had to be supported to go to the toilet. I couldn’t even look after baby properly on my own. So the idea that elective is better is a myth in my opinion. I’d be interesting to check the research on this. I may look into this when I have time.