Women are encouraged to have vaginal births due to…

[Undkonm]

1. cost
2. because women are not treated like men in terms of pain management

I have read (and also strongly believe) that the nhs encourages vaginal births to save money. A consultant has recently come forward to say exactly this. It is appalling and women are still falling for the narrative that vaginal birth is the only real way to give birth.

Don’t get me wrong, I know there are huge risks with all medical intervention such a c section. But I know so many people who have ended up with an emergency c section and it’s been awful for them. In contrast, those I know (including myself) who elected a c section by choice had a peaceful and largely predictable birth.

This toxic narrative that birth is only birth if you give birth vaginally is another abuse of women. I am glad I had the insight and confidence to push for what was best for me. I know other women who desperately wanted a c section but were pushed around and didn’t get to have it elected.

When will this end? I should add that I also strongly believe women who want vaginal births should be absolutely supported but it should be an active choice to do that, not the expected ‘norm.’

Do others agree? Do you have other thoughts on this? To go one step further I think the abuse of women continues when the baby arrives with huge pressure to breast feed. Just leave women alone to make decisions that are right for THEM.

Just to add, I had a prolonged recovery with both DC1 and DC2. It was different but I had an episiotomy and lots of internal stitch with DC1 and a section with DC2. Both times I didn’t feel physically ok for a good 6 weeks. Neither birth is a get out jail free card for recovery. Which is why it’s so important a woman is supported in her birth choices from the off.

The problem is there are so many variables and no one can see into the future.
Birth 1 - induced, vaginal delivery, needed stitches.
Birth 2- spontaneous labour, ended in emergency section
Birth 3 - induced, vaginal delivery, no stitches. Couldn’t believe how (relatively) easy it was.

I just think more support is needed after birth, whether vaginal or section, and especially for those who want to breastfeed but are having difficulty. It’s wild that we go through the exhaustion of labour/surgery and birth and are then basically left alone in a short-staffed noisy ward with no prospect of rest when we need it most.

There was a thread the other day with an op who wanted her partner to stay after her section, and loads of, I assume, women were bitching and sneering at her. I find that attitude so toxic.

I’ve voted YANBU.

I think up to a certain age, assuming no other health issues, ideally vaginal should probably be the default (with vastly improved care and standards) but c section should always be a legitimate option. However with maternity services being so dire at the moment I really struggle to see how vaginal birth is a preferable option.

I think after a certain age first time mums should be encouraged to consider c sections.

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying and think risks of vaginal birth are often underplayed whereas those of c sections are overstated.

Out of interest, those saying C Sections should only be if absolutely medically necessary, are you saying that women shouldn’t be able to opt for one?

Tell that to my body because it must have missed the memo!

First time round, the placenta was deteriorating. Three failed inductions later, I had a planned CS. Obs said I have a small pelvis and the baby was big, The next two were each bigger than the last, so all electives. I've never been in labour.

When I had my babies 20+ years ago, new mums were kept in hospital much longer. I was glad of it, because I had the help I needed to establish breastfeeding. I think I was in for a full week having my youngest! I didn't really mind because I only had to look after one child rather than three!

I’ve had 2 c sections, first one planned, second an emergency one.
Both times the consultants (different hospitals) recommended them due to me having a narrow pelvis and previous pelvic surgeries. I have heard it can be hard to get them to agree to an elective c section if there isn’t any medical need.

However I did live in a different country for the beginning of my pregnancy with dc1 where c sections were much more common (private healthcare). If baby was predicted over 4kg then a c section was recommended. It was also mandatory that all woman were tested for gestational diabetes. I think one of the reasons they pushed more for c sections was because they were over twice as expensive as a natural birth.

Surely everyone wants to avoid major abdominal surgery?? If it’s absolutely needed, sure but otherwise go with the natural exit .

Ultimately almost every aspect of maternity care needs to be improved so that vaginal births are safer than they currently are. Equally I believe a C section should be available to anybody who wants one and it technically is... at least in the NICE guidelines.

I had barely any pain with my elective c section (and only paracetamol and ibuprofen as pain relief after D/C (24 hours). Catheter out after 6 hours, up and about after 12. Breastfed, out and about within a few days. No issues with my scar. I loved my experience and have zero desire to ever experience a vaginal birth and don’t think I’m missing out on anything at all! I don’t feel any of the guilt/sadness I have heard some people express about not giving birth vaginally.

I wouldn’t have gone anywhere near an induction and my worst outcome was an emergency section. All those I know who had emergency sections seemed to have difficult recoveries but then they’d been through labor that serious enough complications to require emergency surgery they weren’t expecting and that obviously takes a much harder toll. It’s naive to lump fully elective and emergency sections in together. It’s also important to differentiate planned sections due to complications as other medical issues underlying that are going to impact recovery.

@Viviennemary not scared of pain, scared of serious birth injuries that I have seen far too many times that can last a life time and that the NHS/social care/education/society does not provide adequate services or support for. An epidural does not solve this!

Sadly you are right. When home birth was the norm, up till the 50s, the maternal mortality rate was higher. Hospital births were promoted to save the lives of mothers. Now, you have to be totally clear of all problems to have a home birth (as my DiL did) and it can be lovely. Hospital births do have more complications because anyone with any possibility of problems is refused a home birth - other DiL nearly died from loss of blood, fortunately she was in hospital.

Yes of course it's the norm. Most women's bodies are automatically able to go into labour abd give birth vaginally most of the time. No woman's body automatically "goes into C-section".

We weren't made. Even most Christians don't believe God 'made' us like some plasticine figures or something. We evolved. And we haven't evolved perfectly. Human babies have heads that are very large for the mothers' pelvises.

If we’re all happy to ignore the long-term negative effects on the baby’s microbiome that result from c sections, sure - the NHS is being negligent…

Most women want a vaginal birth surely as it's considered safer, that's why it's pushed by health professionals. I had a vaginal birth with my first but had an awful birth including complications. 2nd time round I opted for a planned C-section and I was fully supported by health professionals. My recovery from the C-section was far easier than the vaginal birth, and that was with a toddler to take care of also! If I could do it all again I would go for another planned C-section.

I remember my Nan telling me that back in the day, you would stay in hospital for 2 weeks to recover and be helped with the baby. Now women are flung out the door as soon as possible and just excepted to get on with it.

This is a really interesting read:

amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/feb/13/caesareans-or-vaginal-births-should-mothers-or-medics-have-the-final-say

Particularly the section about the risks of c sections that weren't taking place because the mum or baby had risk factors, ie. maternal request sections, which is what warps statistics about risk v vaginal a lot. Because sections are more likely in women who have health issues or babies who are unwell in the womb or have risk factors, unless this is recorded separately as in the study mentioned above, you don't get an accurate picture.

Most women who had c section did it to save childs and her life.
I am surprised your biggest concern about this medical procedure is how your tummy would look in the future.

There’s good evidence to show that our bodies are still evolving to support us walking upright, which is why we get far more back problems than other primates and childbirth is a longer, often a more painful process with a higher complication rate. I think that should be kept in mind when people talk about vaginal births being natural.

Hit enter too soon on last post:

'The data shocked the study’s head author, Darine El-Chaâr, a perinatal researcher at the Ottawa hospital. In the planned vaginal birth group, there was a higher percentage of negative outcomes compared with the MRC group, driven by serious vaginal tears and babies admitted to intensive care. “I myself am challenged by the data,” she says, underlining that she believes vaginal birth is natural. “I wanted it to be the other way around.”

You're not wrong and people with medical risk factors should absolutely give birth wherever is safest for them based on their own situation.

But the flip side of the coin is how many straightforward, no risk factors etc birth in hospital because 'thats what you do' and end up having unnecessary intervention or even traumatic births, simply because of the cascade of intervention that's inevitable in a hospital birth.

Medical care should still absolutely be there for those who need it and that includes home birth and free birth.

Yes, but same could be said for midwives advocating for 'natural' births.
Obviously an obstetrician-gynaecologist is the same as an ob-gyn.

Anyone considered the benefits to the baby of a vaginal delivery over a ceasarean ?

All mine, despite the various different births, have no allergies, non of them have asthma or eczema, even though DH had both as a child/young person, no digestive issues, even though one was weaned at three months as was the advice at the time of birth. And they all have robust health, the one who was formula fed, the one who was entirely breast fed and the third who got a mix of the two, all grew up in households with cats and dogs !

I presume one or two will just spontaneously combust at some point due to my poor birthing/feeding decisions ? Although the last one wasn't even my decision, it was a case of sign this or you will both die !

@FanofLeaves what do you mean, “this what’s best for the mum/baby has to stop”? I’m talking about the science behind vaginal birth and breast feeding? What point are you trying to make here? I feel like you’ve read the post and taken it as criticism, when I was simply sharing the research. Based on your response, I think it would be right to say I’m sorry you may have felt judged for your choices, by others. Everyone has the right to their choices and opinions but no one is entitled to there facts.

Vaginal birth is safer for both mother and child, usually. That is why it is and should be the norm.
We are told hospital is safer than home so when women go into labour they want to be where it’s safe- same as every other mammal- but the hospitals don’t want us there til we are almost ready to deliver so women are at home anxious and wanting to be where we are told is safe.

I do think there is some misogyny and a real lack of empathy in maternity services, women are just expected to get in with it because it’s natural.
Women are arificially put into labour or their labours are artificially augmented- nothing about that is ‘natural’, it’s that cascade of intervention that leads to so many complicated, painful, traumatic births.

@LondonFox You have assumed a lot from my post. I have said c section is of course sometimes necessary but would not elect for one to avoid natural birth .So much more trauma and danage to abdomen at the time and in the future.