Husband shouted at my daughters

[Unknown987]

Bit of back story. I have two daughters from a previous marriage, 12 and 10. One with my current husband.
My husband has a very good relationship with my older two. He's the softer playful adult in the family whereas I'm more the disciplinarian. He is actively involved in all parts of their lives (discipline is left to me as my expectations are higher than his I guess). He has been in their lives 5 years.
our 2.8 year old has been having major tantrums recently - she has meltdowns over something she does not want to do (normally end of day when she is tired). This one was triggered by bath time. In these tantrums she is hitting crying screaming breaking anything around her. I would welcome any advice around this too?
Last night was a particularly bad tantrum. Both husband and I are fed up 10 mins in and we are laughing out of dispair while she is just going crazy on floor. My older two find it funny and are always laughing when she has these tantrums (we have spoken to them before to leave and go upstairs away from baby when this happens as it is not helpful).
Older two were upstairs laughing throughout the tantrum even though I had told them to go in their room.
Baby daughter scratched husbands face in the tantrum (really hard) almost drew blood so while I took her off him and restrained her the girls were on the landing and he shouting at them and pushed the 10 year old towards the stairs by putting hand on shoulder (she said forcefully I didn't see) and he shouted at both older girls 'I don't ever want to see you f*ing laughing again when baby has a melt down.'
Girls went down and I told him to calm down as we are at our wits end with baby's behaviour and I believe he took it out on the older two.
i am so disappointed with him and have told him never to swear or touch my girls again. I don't know how to be now. I explained to my girls that it is out of order but he was angry at the baby not them. This has never happened before as normally it is me that tells the girls off and is seen as the 'mean' disciplinarian.
But Aibu to be angry at him?

Well obviously. But its always so easy to say what you wouldn’t do, but it can be very challenging to say what you would do.

This is all good advice.

If you googled it @musicismath then you would realise that the point stands. It doesn’t matter whether the new partner is married or not to the mother, bringing an adult male into a household with children from another man is statistically a dangerous thing to do

You can’t laugh at a situation while at the same time tell children off for laughing at the same situation. That doesn’t make any sense at all, no matter what your excuses are (for your laughing). It’s either acceptable to laugh or it’s not.

he shouted and guided her towards the stairs ? What is the issue ? As for those saying you must never raise your voice, you obviously live in a perfect home in a perfect street in a perfect town called utopia. I am afraid the world is not perfect where people are ever so niiace and only every smile at each other and use lovely words. No wonder our children are growing up unable to cope when they join the real world and are bossed about at work or come up against someone who doesn't use nice words, no wonder there is so much hand wringing anxiety in children.

@Draculasauntie

give over. He put his hand on her shoulder and directed her to her room. That's not abuse! He swore telling her not to laugh at the lo's behaviour. He didn't swear AT her.

this 'abuse' every-time some breathes diminishes what abuse really is.

Exactly.

Both husband and I are fed up 10 mins in and we are laughing out of dispair while she is just going crazy on floor

Ten minutes is a long time for your daughters to be watching and listening to these tantrums - I expect they find them very unnerving and are laughing as a way of coping with the mayhem. It must be distressing for them to see the adults unable to cope with a toddler, on a regular basis.

It was a pressure cooker situation and the lid blew.

It's hard to know which version of events is real, as you said he shouted and forcibly pushed your daughter and then that changed to he guided her with a hand on her shoulder (corroborated by your other daughter) and raised his usually quiet, calm voice. Which one was it?

I would sit down this morning and talk it through. Your husband needs to apologise for swearing at the girls and the girls need to apologise for not listening to instructions.

Going forward, if bath time is a weak spot and likely to cause a tantrum, why aren't your girls either in their room with the door closed, or downstairs, away from the situation?
I also don't think it's a good idea for both yourself and your husband to be trying to navigate the tantrum because that's likely to lead to overstimulation and counter-productive. One of you needs to be in the same room as your little one making sure she's safe, not both of you. What used to work for your older two? Obviously all children (and tantrums) are different but either holding her close, or just sitting or pottering around in the room until she calms down would be what I'd try.
Imagine as an adult who is aware of their emotions, having four people laughing at you when you've become stressed and overwhelmed and compare that to a little 2year old who can't regulate their emotions as well. I wouldn't like it and it would make me worse!

It was a stressful situation but you all need to communicate and move forward. Together.

Your expectations of your older children are too high. They see you and DH laughing at your toddler and join in. Then they get shoved around and shouted at by your DH. I don’t understand why anyone is laughing at toddler’s behaviour to be honest.

What will their father say if they tell him?

The fact that your husband shouted at other members of the family isn't a major thing in the grand scheme of things. Families do have flash points but it doesn't mean that anything is majorly wrong with the family dynamics - it was just a stressful moment in time. By all means as others have suggested have a family chat and reassure the older girls that this is trying time for everyone at the moment.
As for the tantrums, they will pass - but the trick is to develop a strategy that is consistent. You have been offered plenty of suggestions. Perhaps if she is kicking off because she doesn't want a bath then just put her to bed with whatever comforts she has - eg teddy bear, blanket or whatever. Every time she kicks off - just put her to bed or in her room (assuming she's not sharing) and just be consistent. Or alternatively, presuming she can't hurt herself everyone just disappears in the house but always keeping an ear out - once she is aware that she is alone in the room she will come looking for someone for some comfort or hugs. It is a trying time but you will all get there in the end.

A tip first for handling your child's meltdowns. This may work better when they are a little older - we didn't really have the terrible 2s with my (now) 3yo but have had a little bit of tricky threes. I pour water into a glass, get a straw and let him blow bubbles when he's having a meltdown. Usually diffuses them - he takes his anger out on the water and gets distracted.

As for your husband, I think - while the job of a parent is to be patient - we all lose our rag and shout occasionally. He needs to say sorry as soon as possible. There is a useful lesson here for your older daughters - no one is perfect but when people screw up, they should apologise swiftly. My main worry is - he did this in front of you. Are you totally sure he doesn't behave even worse when you are not there?

I agree with a lot of previous advice here. Talk to him about managing his temper. Your daughters have had a big life adjustment fairly recently so he needs to be kind and understanding.

Right I’m by no means an expert and I have definitely made many mistakes myself, but to me it really does sound like these tantrums are being given far too much oxygen and airtime.

You mention you and your husband ‘actively dealing’ with the tantrum, plus your older DD’s laughing on the sidelines too. Just complete escalation.

I don’t think it should take two of you to deal with the tantrum. I don’t know how much ‘active dealing with’ a tantrum really needs. I’m not sure why your husband was in a situation to be scratched - was he physically trying to restrain your toddler from hurting herself for example, or was he persisting in trying to get her into the bath? I’d definitely recommend having a look at some of the parenting accounts/ books etc that focus on toddlers, tantrums etc and working out between you which approach you want to take going forward. Have a calm family meeting with the older ones where you spell out what needs to happen when the toddler tantrums or otherwise pushes boundaries, and try to get them onside as to how important they are as big sisters, how much she looks up to them and needs them to help her learn the right way to behave etc.

I’d make sure I was doing all the things I needed to make bathtime and the lead up fun - make sure it’s at the right time and not when she’s already overtired, all the usual stuff about being playful with it, offering choices etc. At that age I tried all the stuff about naming feelings, the full gentle parenting script about ‘I can see you’re really angry, you don’t want a bath, it’s ok to be angry but mummy does need to make sure you’re clean’ blah blah. Apparently it works great for some, but only ever angered my daughter more - even now at 4 she’s livid at any suggestion of that kind of thing! So I just go for the ‘oh I know, it’s so hard, I’m going to wait here till you’re ready’ then shut up and sit somewhere in the room/ just outside it whilst she had a scream and thrash about, cuddle eventually when she was ready and then offer some aspect of the bath process she really likes eg ‘do you want to pour some bubbles in - let’s do lots and lots’.

Why is it okay for OP and her husband to be 'laughing' at these tantrums (even if it is out of despair) and not the girls?

The almost 3 year old won't understand the difference in the laughing, and neither will the girls most likely.

So he yelled at them for behaving like he and OP were.

YABU

I would normally be very concerned about what your husband did but in the context and if it doesn’t ever usually happen, it’s kind of understandable.

What you need to focus on is working out how to reduce your small child’s sensory overload. She clearly cannot cope with bathtime, not surprising as for a child who struggles this way, it contains all the worst elements - tiredness, water of varying temperatures, someone rubbing at their body, someone messing with their head, shampoo in the eyes, the 2 adults voices and their stress, the loud siblings, doesn’t have control, doesn’t know when it will end, contract between warm water and cold air when they get out, feel of the towel rubbing on their skin and much more. You need to put yourself in her shoes and imagine something being done to you that you can’t cope with and have no control over.

I’d sit with your husband and really have a good think about what the flashpoints are, when they happen, why they might happen and try to make a plan. The plan would include reducing sensory overload, reducing demands and building her back up to being able to relax and cope with being washed. You could accept she may be less clean than she has been and make washing less frequent. Make the process much much faster. You could build it in to a time when siblings are at clubs. You build in choices. People who are demand avoidant have a strong need for personal autonomy, so to feel she has some control might help e.g. when you’re at the shops away from the flashpoint, show her 2 cute shower gels and ask her which one she likes. Let her pick one and pay with her own coins - do lots to build positive associations with washing.

There are lots of parenting groups on Facebook. If you join e.g. parenting girls with autism (not saying this is the issue, but they are unjudgemental) they will have many great tips for situations like these.

I think this would be more straightforward if you and your DH weren't laughing. I get that it was a stress release valve in the situation but to them reprimand or indeed push the older children for laughing just like you is hypocritical and giving mixed messages to them.

I would explain to them that you and DH were also wrong to laugh and say that you as adults also get big emotions and sometimes don't handle it the way you'd like to but that you know physical force is wrong and it won't happen again.

Well you being the disciplinarian hasn't worked has it?

They were told to go to their room and stop standing there laughing. They are old enough to have followed that instruction. They made a choice not to despite numerous times of being asked.

Maybe he needs to firmer more often and not leave it to you so they listen to him.

Pushing isn't great. But did he shove or use his hand to guide her away? That needs properly addressing. I have no issue with guiding someone away from a situation where their presence is creating a possible danger.

Can't get upset about the swearing. They should have fucked off when told previously numerous times. They didn't so he said it a way they would know he was serious.

As for dealing with tantrums. Try choices. Bath or X first. These pjs or these ones. This story or this one. Determined toddlers feel out of control without any choice and autonomy. So give a little but not too much.
Plus make sure there is nothing she can throw or break if she has one. If she lays on bathroom floor having a tantrum walk away and tell her you'll come back when she is calm and ready to have a bath.
You both laughing really isn't helpful and may have lead to the situation where your eldest 2 think laughing at her is ok which is what starts them laughing.

I just want to update for those who are actually interested in the situation rather than those who just want to get one over someone else.

i haven't spoken to my husband since last night and creating this post - but before I could suggest anything he himself went out early this morning to go gym and brought back apology chocolates and spoke to the older two and apologised. He's mortified and knows he's done wrong I can tell by how he's withdrawn and quietly thinking.
the older two climbed into my bed before / around the time I posted as the rain woke them up and the bed was empty as husband had gone gym. I asked them then. If I wanted to minimise behaviour I wouldn't have posted on here and supported him without a thought. I left my first husband for a lot less and I am not one of those women who will allow my children to be at risk to be with a man. I am not afraid of being on my own or kicking him or any man out to keep me and my children safe. I just wanted to know if his reaction was somewhat understood as he is not their dad and I do over think such situations. He has not previously really had to disciple the girls as generally speaking they are well behaved and don't need such disciple.
my 10 year old in question loves her step dad and if they suggested any other feeling I would leave. My children come over anyone and anything and he knows this. I just am struggling with baby tantrums and how to deal with it and this is all new to me.
we are having a family meeting later and applying some of the useful strategies suggested here for meltdowns.

Start with a conversation with your daughters, do they ever feel intimidated or threatened by him or was this a one off for them too. Tell them they must always talk to you and you are there to listen.

Make it crystal clear to him you will have zero tolerance for verbal or physical abuse to your dds ever again. Do not accept excuses, or minimising, or anything other than genuine remorse and him being very keen to fix it.

Two parents laughing at a tantruming 2 year old is ridiculous . One person in the room patiently and calmly supervising and making sure they are safe is plenty and doesn't exacerbate the tantrum.

Please look up love bombing and cycles of abuse.
This update about his response this morning with gift giving is a red flag

I do this too when I upset someone because I feel like I express my love through gifts. I call it gift giving. But will read into it

He shouldn't have put his hands on your daughter.

I explained to my girls that it is out of order but he was angry at the baby not them.

But why did you say he wasn't angry at them?

I'd be fuming if I was trying to deal with a toddler tantrum, and their siblings refused to go to their room as told, and started laughing and winding the toddler up instead.

He's not allowed to push them obviously, but he has every right to be angry at their behaviour.

So he said - not shouted
Ushered, ie guided down the stairs

And he spoke clearly that he did not want them laughing at the toddler when they have a meltdown. Nothing wrong with that. The toddler thinks having a tantrum makes everyone laugh and it escalates, that also includes you and him not laughing.

You are making a bigger deal of this than it is. It has however, shown you all that as suggested a family meeting on how you collectively deal with the tantrums is needed.

Sounds like he is a good step dad and dad - he is dealing with tantrums aswell

I think we sometimes hold step parents to a higher standard than biological parents.

I disagree that gift giving is necessarily a red flag. (Though I agree it could be as part of a cycle).

Refusing to apologise or silent treatment would be a red flag.

I saw helpful analogy recently (at least I thought it was helpful)

If someone is on a ship in stormy sea, and they’re terrified - get then look at the captain - if he looks calm you know you’ll be ok, he’s dealt with this before, you’ll be safe

an angry toddler needs the same. They need to know that however full of unmanageable feelings they are, that you are calm, you have managed this before, they’ll be ok.

my toddlers get the rage when they’re tired, hungry and / or over stimulated. Can you try and bath earlier in the day? Have a slower wind down period to bed?

when the inevitable occasional rages do happen I find that the best thing is one adult, a safe, dimly lit room and saying ‘I see you’re angry, I’m here when you’re ready for a cuddle’ works best. Sometimes is takes a while for it to blow through - but while they do they’re safe and supported by someone who isn’t scared of their big feelings. It must be so scary to feel all of that for them!