Page 14 | To tell Children's Services it is a malicious referal from school

UndertheCedartree · 2024-09-20T20:48:27+00:00

So DD's school have today told me they are referring us to Children's Services. Ever since I made a complaint they have been trying to off roll her. They are not putting in proper support for DD leaving her struggling and then not wanting to go in the next day. Apparently this is all my fault. I feel this is just another tactic for me to be so fed up with the school I pull her out.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 13:34

Matronic6 · 21/09/2024 08:21

No the schools plan is ridiculous as the support has not been arranged in a productive way. OP's daughter is in the reception she is not in the classroom nor with her peers, how is she eve going to adapt to that situation of never in it?
She is currently getting no education, no support and no chance to even begin to settle. The school is failing OP's daughter and a parent would be failing their child if they accepted this 'provision.'

This type of scenario would not be a short time. It will go on endlessly as it is not being managed properly. What would you do when your holidays run out? Would you still happily sit in a school reception all day whilst the school does zero for your child but still gets to stay they are educating her because she is in school?

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Exactly. At what point do the school say OK, we'll put some support in place? After 2 weeks, 2 months, 2 years? If DD is to get an education at one point they will have to so why not put a proper target support plan in place now?

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 13:38

mitogoshigg · 21/09/2024 08:29

It's really hard when children do not suit the school system, we had to work with the school trying different things to come up with a bespoke solution - we were offered a small unit or special education and refused as dd is very bright and deserved to study for GCSEs etc.

I lost jobs because I needed to collect her so often, it's tough

Eventually she had a desk at the back of the school office, a laptop and could go to classes if she felt able but retreat there as required, the office ladies kept her in tea and biscuits! I think bizarrely this kindness from the office staff was the key because she stopped school refusing and stayed all day, albeit not in classes. She got a*'s so it worked.

Trying different solutions is important because they are all individuals so what works for one doesn't work for another

Ah, that sounds lovely. I can see how that worked as she felt safe. It's a shame DD's school can't seem to understand that.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 13:42

Sirzy · 21/09/2024 08:30

a parent being in reception can work - it did with DS - but it won’t work for all and it depends on circumstances. For it to have any impact it needs to be part of a much bigger plan though not just “sit in reception and hope for the best”

Quite. Me sitting in reception isn't going to magically resolve all her issues - in fact will just make them worse! All the professionals agree that until a suitable plan can be put into place school is too damaging for her.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 13:47

H12345 · 21/09/2024 08:33

I understand it not ideal but what if they are running out of options?
I just know if my child was that upset I would try it and see what happens for a week before looking into other options as something needs to change for that poor child and parent.
I work with a lot of adults who have been failed by the school system and wellbeing is always the key to their success.

They are being asked to put a graduated response plan into place offering targeted support with reviews following guidance from the Ed Psych and other professionals. So they've not even tried any serious options thus far!

Would you try if you had been warned that to do so would damage your DC and probably push them over into EBSA and autistic burnout? Would you not insist on a suitable plan?

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 13:58

Notgoodatpoetrybutgreatatlit · 21/09/2024 08:36

Hi OP,
I do get it. I work on the other side of the fence in a secondary mainstream and I see students like your daughter struggle in mainstream. Some of the basic ways secondary schools operate are really hard for students with ASD.
I am frequently of the same mind as you that there really should be alternative provision for students with ASD. Your daughters school can't stop triggering her as they can't stop having sudden unexpected changes, to the timetable to the rooms they teach her in to assembly to well a lot of things.
I have worked in secondary schools for decades it has always been like this.
Primary is a much more friendly environment for asd students . 1:1 student is not usually a thing in secondary as the complexity of the subject curriculum requires subject specialists. Also all the research shows this sort of support creates a damaging dependency.
None of this helps you right now. Obviously you know if you get the EHCP you have the right to name any school or provision in your area.
I don't think social services will add to your problems they may even help.
And I am impressed with your resilience.

The thing is there are plenty of things we could be told about. So something that DD found hard was suddenly it wasn't the expected lesson, it was a church service. So the Ed Psych suggested that I be given a list of when they are so I can prepare DD and put it on her visual timetable. To be honest there are so many things that could be quick wins and put all together could make such a difference to DD.

Thank you for your kind words.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 14:02

Futurascope · 21/09/2024 08:38

The amount of time it takes to make a referral… schools would not have the time to do this maliciously!

Add in the fact they have to provide.evidence at such a high threshold that referrals are rarely accepted… I would say that any referral made by any school would be done in good faith.

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You'd think wouldn't you?

It's a shame they couldn't use that time to put a proper plan in place for my DD. Or even better the Head could teach the SENCo and Mental health lead's classes so they had time to put a suitable plan in place for DD.

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HappyBackHome · 21/09/2024 14:13

I believe you. Especially after the update that the school wants you to stay in reception with your dd and not take her home if they cannot / will not support her to help her cope.

"She has autism and I have to go and get her from school as she is so distressed. When I pick her up she is in a right state - shaking, self harming, crying, nose bleeds"

I'm pretty sure schools are not allowed to just call you to collect her if they cannot manage her - did they give you a letter every single time they asked you to pick her up before? If not, I think each of those occasions is considered an illegal exclusion...

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 14:29

AgainandagainandagainSS · 21/09/2024 08:42

I thi k we all know that there’s ‘complaining’ and there’s ‘complaining’ don’t we?

Most grievances get sorted via a conversation in a HOD or SLT member’s office or email follow up. Not a call to SS. Would love to hear the tone and nature of this ‘complaint’ and whether this mother has previous.

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It was a complaint made via the official school complaints procedure. First time I've ever made a complaint. The school tried to gloss over it and not give an official response. They did not do so within correct timescales. I had to send about 4 emails before I was finally given a response many weeks late. The school lied in their response. Apparently my DD was never eligible for this trip in the first place and the alternative was never going to happen either. I have it all in writing. When I went back to the school and said this, they just said if I was not happy with their response then I had to escalate it to the governors. So I did that. It was 3 weeks before the end of last term. The governor secretary or whoever they are phoned me and said that it's not a good idea to make formal complaints against the school as it gets their backs up and also commented they don't really understand what it is like to have an autistic child. So I said well, they don't want to resolve it informally. Anyway, summer came and went. Then this term she sent me an email saying she had spoken to the school and they told her they'd arranged a meeting with me to deal with the issue informally. Which they haven't so I honestly don't know what to do. You would hope an issue could be resolved within a few weeks but this has been dragged out, presumably so you give up. I have said to the governor lady - can I not just show you my paperwork I have proving my case. I've not been able to email her back, though as the school have obviously blocked my email address so just getting post master back! Just another way to hinder.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 14:37

Marchitectmummy · 21/09/2024 08:46

It sounds like the school can not meet the needs of your child and are asking you for assistance that you also can not provide.

What would your child need to enable a smooth school day, is it realistic that a school could provide it?

It soukds as if your child could benefit from skills beyond the school. Assuming you do not have a specialist school close by.

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The school are saying they can meet her needs and therefore not supporting with an EHCP. They are saying they can as they have not got evidence to show they can't.

A targeted plan with reviews based on professional advice is what she needs.

I am looking at all options for Sec 19 provision. But she needs an EHCP going forwards.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 14:43

Freshersfluforyou · 21/09/2024 08:49

Maybe the school are trying to first of all break the habit of daughter ringing her mum in a state of distress and mum dropping everything and whisking her home. I think they are probably trying to establish the idea first and foremost that going home isn't an option, before gradually trying to embed time in the classroom. The problem is, when a parent just keeps insisting on taking a child home because they are distressed amd its what they want, school don't get any chance to implement other strategies, first and foremost they are trying to find a way to keep her on the school site!

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Where did I say my daughter rings me in a state of distress and I drop everything (sorry, patients you just take care of yourself for the afternoon OK?) and wisk her home? I think you're making things up. The DC can't use phones in school so how would she even ring me??

They're trying to establish 'going home isn't an option' by continously sending her home or suspend her? How am I insisting on taking her home when they are ringing me to pick her up not the other way around?!

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Notgoodatpoetrybutgreatatlit · 21/09/2024 14:57

Hi OP, it is really hard and the school are not communicating with you. But I don't think they are likely to change how they operate, even if your complaint is upheld, and I can see why you are angry with them.
The ed pysch and other professionals don't work in your daughters school and possibly have never worked in a school. No secondary I have ever worked in could provide you with a list of changes to the regular programme a week in advance.Decisions are taken by too many people often very close to when the events happen.
And as you have found they are struggling with having enough staff. I'm not saying this to wind you up just to let you know with the absolute best will in the world they can't do that one point the ed psych has fixed on. For example a teacher may be off sick on the day they should be teaching your daughters class.
If the Ed psych moved their office into the school for a week or two and tried to create such a list for the week ahead they would soon find out how hard this actually is.
The school as unhelpful as they are are probably saying to themselves that they have made reasonable adjustments. Which don't meet your daughters needs.
I am.so sorry this is so hard. I don't have any solutions how I wish I did.

Morph22010 · 21/09/2024 15:06

Caramellie3 · 21/09/2024 12:33

@UndertheCedartree have you tried sendiass for support at meetings and advice? Sunshine support can help with the ehcp. I would also contact gp and mental health team for self harm. My child was younger but I removed from one school to another to get the support needed. Also was out of education for a year before a suitable school was found. There is plenty of loop holes in the system unfortunately. I also felt bullied by school staff at times. It is a fight to get what is needed.

If you are recommending sunshine support you should point out thst they are a business who charge. They don’t just help out with the ehcp for free, not that’s necessarily an issue with this but I think it’s better to be up front when recommending things that cost in this area

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:12

SeptimusSheep · 21/09/2024 08:52

the office ladies kept her in tea and biscuits! I think bizarrely this kindness from the office staff was the key

For my son, it was the canteen ladies who always saved him a bacon bap for break, and the bus driver who chatted to him before pickup (he was taxied in, so this was his rare chance to be on a bus).

My kids have been in five different schools over the years and some are genuinely much worse than others. I'm not sure why that's hard to imagine.

Ah, these are so heart warming. Keeping an egg and cress sandwich to one side for my DD would make such a difference for her! She doesn't usually eat at school which I don't think helps matters.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:16

Dontcallmescarface · 21/09/2024 08:59

Does your A/L cover the whole (or even a half), term? You can't possibly know how long it would take for your child to feel comfortable enough to attend school on a full-time basis. And if it works and my child become settled and happy, and if it doesn't what then?

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And even if your child is settled and happy while their mum is there. What happens next? How do you go from settled and happy with mum to settled and happy in school? It needs a plan and it needs some support!

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:19

NowImNotDoingIt · 21/09/2024 09:15

Try and look at this referral as a positive. If your DD's school is as shit as it sounds , they really have shot themselves in the foot with this one. Their "plan" , is not a plan. Their refusal to implement the EP recommendations and support the EHCP process will reflect badly on them. They can't have it both ways. Your daughter is bad enough that you need to sit in reception all day on stand by, but at the same time not enough to warrant an EHCP and you're causing it all.

SS will be able to offer more (directed) support if deemed necessary and also put some pressure on the school to at least attempt to meet your daughter's needs.

My DS just said so if you are causing all.DD's problems why are they phoning you to get her early and why do they want you sitting in school with her? You couldn't make it up, could you?

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Petitchat · 21/09/2024 15:23

Freshersfluforyou · 21/09/2024 08:49

Maybe the school are trying to first of all break the habit of daughter ringing her mum in a state of distress and mum dropping everything and whisking her home. I think they are probably trying to establish the idea first and foremost that going home isn't an option, before gradually trying to embed time in the classroom. The problem is, when a parent just keeps insisting on taking a child home because they are distressed amd its what they want, school don't get any chance to implement other strategies, first and foremost they are trying to find a way to keep her on the school site!

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Have you read the wrong thread?
This is not what happens at all?

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:26

Sirzy · 21/09/2024 09:17

For best results for the young person school and home need to work together.

if a parent goes to school and says we are having issues at home then as much as possible the school should support the parent (including signposting to other organisations)

teamwork is important when children are struggling. It’s not always possible from both sides but it does make a difference.

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Absolutely and showing a united front and good rapport. All helps DD to feel safe. Myself and the Learning mentor do this but not people like the Head and Deputy, and we were trying to work together by sending an email every school day to find patterns but that's been stopped now.

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Morph22010 · 21/09/2024 15:32

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:19

My DS just said so if you are causing all.DD's problems why are they phoning you to get her early and why do they want you sitting in school with her? You couldn't make it up, could you?

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Says it all, he’s got more understanding!!

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:43

Whatafustercluck · 21/09/2024 09:19

There's a staggering amount of ignorance here about the challenges faced by SEN kids and their parents in trying to access education. In our case, it took a 6 week period of school avoidance, and the complete mental health breakdown of my then 6yo daughter before our struggles were taken seriously (undiagnosed, "fine at school"). Our (part time) senco told us not to bother applying for an echp needs assessment because they had no evidence to submit in support (they did, they were just focusing on the lack of evident learning disability because academically dd is bright). She told us that without a diagnosis it was fruitless. When she realised we weren't taking no for an answer, she asked me to write her referral form - I mean, I actually sat at her computer and typed up everything! We got the ehcp needs assessment, the Ed Psych report noted lots that the school hadn't seen, and we now have an ehcp.

Op, get that ehcp by hook or crook. If the LA turned it down, presumably the next stage is Tribunal? Ours was turned down initially, but I spent time going through their response and highlighting the litany of errors it contained, sent it back to Tribunal with additional evidence. The LA overturned their original decision before it went to Tribunal. I think you should focus your efforts on securing the ehcp first and foremost - using the involvement of children's services as additional evidence that her needs are not currently being met. Your daughter may even need a specialist setting, given that mainstream isn't working for anyone. The ehcp will be the key to unlocking more of the right support.

You are right, off rolling is a big issue - many SEN parent either choose or are forced to homeschool for this very reason. I don't even really blame the schools, it's the lack of awareness and resourcing at LA level that's to blame. Mainstream schools can't cope with children with significant additional needs, but there's a lack of alternative provision. Some are definitely much better at providing support than others. Our dd thrived in Y2 and has just moved up to Juniors from infants, where the support and understanding is truly excellent. I am fearful though of what the change to secondary may bring. But that's precisely why we fought so long and hard for an ehcp (she's also now on the waiting list for autism assessment).

Oh yes, you've guessed it - my DD is 'fine' in school too. Compliant, masking, yes. Fine? No Learning? No

Sorry I know I'm venting a lot but just need to debrief.

The Head even had the cheek to say in her speech about DD being 'fine' in school that 'she showed people around at the open evening'....they only let her do so because I insisted she be given the same opportunities as other DC and not left out again because of her autism. DD was crushed when told she couldn't take part and the school dares to suggest that was something positive they did for her!

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:54

Whatafustercluck · 21/09/2024 09:34

This is really common in girls in particular because they're more socially aware. My dd has sensory dysregulation when anxious, we used to get around it by telling her to ditch the shoes and socks (which were particularly problematic for her) and slip on some comfy flip flops. This worked until she realised all the other kids were staring at her because she wasn't wearing normal footwear. She now gets stuck in a loop between not being able to tolerate normal footwear, but having no alternative she's happy to wear.

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Ah, that must be frustrating. And why the issues are more complex than they may at first seem.

So with DD they have as her outcome and then it is broken down into some steps
Go to the Learnung Support centre at lunchtime - she's too scared to go in there as she was told off for colouring - apparently this was a mistake she is allowed to colour in there - but the damage has been done - so it is an unachievable step
Another step is:
Ask for help when you need it - DD is terrified of asking for anything - it is again unachievable.
She has been given all sorts of passes:
Time Out
Fidget
Lunch queue....but she's not able to use any of them. So on paper it can look good. But the reality can be very different.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:58

NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/09/2024 09:36

I remember the earlier thread.

That was when they'd refused your idea of coming into school itself to spend time alone with your child/supervised by one member of staff - and you said in that thread that there wasn't a single other child in the school who might ever need to use those facilities and you'd only be there for fifteen minutes at most - but now you're reluctant to stay in reception because that would be all day.

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I said no such thing. What I did say was the room is used for one child at a time. And yes, I can manage 15 minutes per day. All day not so much.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 15:59

Busywithsomething · 21/09/2024 09:36

To call it malicious is likely going too far but perhaps you can say they are doing it unnecessarily. I haven't got much relevant experience. DH works in education and he believes the schools sometimes refer so as to cover their own backs. They don't know the full picture but I'm sure you can put them straight and you would look wrong/ too defensive to say it's malicious now the referral has been made. Best wishes OP. Here's hoping your DD gets some help.

Thank you so much.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 16:08

Demonhunter · 21/09/2024 10:28

Pre preparation is one of the things on my DS's support plan, so there's no reason they can't do that. There was an occasion it didn't happen when the SENDCO was on maternity (she's good at keeping everything in check) and it did have an impact, and I did have mention disability indirect discrimination to the principal to get it sorted, but it was sorted after that.

When you say perceived criticism, what do you mean by that exactly? Is it more framing errors in a positive way rather than saying "this is the wrong way" ?

Again with the United front, what exactly is meant by that? Im not asking to be awkward just his primary did ask for a lot of input from me when devising plans of action so I know a little of how best to approach it with suggestions to them that they will find hard to refuse.

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So if the head is telling me to find another school for her in front of DD she'll feel she's not good enough for the school.

United front - as in we both want what's best for DD and are working together well to that end and we have a good rapport, kind of thing.

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Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 16:18

Avertmyeyes · 21/09/2024 11:41

Stay strong, don’t let them gaslight.
Don’t let them upset you/ don’t show it.

Say as little as possible.
Only answer what they have asked you. Don’t supply extra info.

Bring a friend to meetings, ask for agenda in advance, and what type of meeting, they might just ask you to come in and have like 8 people and then later tell you it was a “child safety” meeting where you thought it was a more routine meeting.

They can make anything, into a bad parent or “worry about mum MH” situation.

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Thank you for the advice. I think I'll have to take a few lorazapam to manage to be so contained! It's not my strong point unfortunately.

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hiredandsqueak · 21/09/2024 16:23

I had this. Dd was signed off by CAMHS, I had put in a complaint that they wouldn't answer. So HT refused at stage one, Chair of Governors at stage two never mentioned reason for complaint instead told me they were an outstanding school and I was a difficult parent, Panel of Governors concluded complaint had been handled well. I was incensed sent it to Ofsted who accepted it as it raised comcerns about leadership and management (how they handled complaint rather than what I complained about) and it formed basis of next inspection.
In retaliation the school made a safeguarding referral to social care. I suspect they may have done so previously as SW said school have made a referral as you have made a complaint. They said that dd hadn't been seen in months despite getting reports from a tutor they paid for and regular updates from CAMHS. I told SW it was a lie but they could come and see dd at home whenever they wanted. Instead they asked if they could confirm last and next appointment with CAMHS as I explained they were here seeing dd at home fortnightly.
SW rang back saying CAMHS had confirmed what I had said, they were closing the referral and advising school there were no safeguarding concerns and to not worry and to have a nice day.