Page 11 | To tell Children's Services it is a malicious referal from school

UndertheCedartree · 2024-09-20T20:48:27+00:00

So DD's school have today told me they are referring us to Children's Services. Ever since I made a complaint they have been trying to off roll her. They are not putting in proper support for DD leaving her struggling and then not wanting to go in the next day. Apparently this is all my fault. I feel this is just another tactic for me to be so fed up with the school I pull her out.

Marchitectmummy · 21/09/2024 08:46

UndertheCedartree · 20/09/2024 23:32

The school could start by cooperating with the support we already have - I.e from all the other professionals. The SW could tell the school they are causing issues by not following the advice of all the professionals involved but I'm sure school will have another excuse as to why the SW is wrong!

Show quote history

It sounds like the school can not meet the needs of your child and are asking you for assistance that you also can not provide.

What would your child need to enable a smooth school day, is it realistic that a school could provide it?

It soukds as if your child could benefit from skills beyond the school. Assuming you do not have a specialist school close by.

Freshersfluforyou · 21/09/2024 08:49

Matronic6 · 21/09/2024 08:21

No the schools plan is ridiculous as the support has not been arranged in a productive way. OP's daughter is in the reception she is not in the classroom nor with her peers, how is she eve going to adapt to that situation of never in it?
She is currently getting no education, no support and no chance to even begin to settle. The school is failing OP's daughter and a parent would be failing their child if they accepted this 'provision.'

This type of scenario would not be a short time. It will go on endlessly as it is not being managed properly. What would you do when your holidays run out? Would you still happily sit in a school reception all day whilst the school does zero for your child but still gets to stay they are educating her because she is in school?

Show quote history

Maybe the school are trying to first of all break the habit of daughter ringing her mum in a state of distress and mum dropping everything and whisking her home. I think they are probably trying to establish the idea first and foremost that going home isn't an option, before gradually trying to embed time in the classroom. The problem is, when a parent just keeps insisting on taking a child home because they are distressed amd its what they want, school don't get any chance to implement other strategies, first and foremost they are trying to find a way to keep her on the school site!

SeptimusSheep · 21/09/2024 08:52

the office ladies kept her in tea and biscuits! I think bizarrely this kindness from the office staff was the key

For my son, it was the canteen ladies who always saved him a bacon bap for break, and the bus driver who chatted to him before pickup (he was taxied in, so this was his rare chance to be on a bus).

My kids have been in five different schools over the years and some are genuinely much worse than others. I'm not sure why that's hard to imagine.

Dontcallmescarface · 21/09/2024 08:59

H12345 · 21/09/2024 07:59

Sorry but I don’t believe it’s ridiculous and would give anything a go if my child was that distressed.

I work full time and would use my holiday allowance it’s just how I would make it work and lucky to have that as an option now my children at secondary school. It will only be for a short period of time and if it works and my child become settled and happy that longer terms means I can do my job more efficiently as won’t be picking child up from school all the time.

Show quote history

Does your A/L cover the whole (or even a half), term? You can't possibly know how long it would take for your child to feel comfortable enough to attend school on a full-time basis. And if it works and my child become settled and happy, and if it doesn't what then?

Petitchat · 21/09/2024 09:07

H12345 · 21/09/2024 07:24

I wouldn’t imagine the school wants me parked up in reception for the next 4 years haha. It will be a trial and then discussion over a short period of time so holiday would cover it plus shows willing to the school and my child.

The child was thriving before and can again but not in the current environment. So change must happen.

I have a friend who was a Teacher but left the job she loved due to behaviour in classrooms and parents lack of accountability for their children behaviour thinking it’s the schools responsibility. It made me aware what teachers are putting up with when they are there to teach our children and equip them with life skills they are not there to be abused, attacked, deal with disruptive behaviour when they have 30 plus children to look after.

Show quote history

If there is challenging behaviour in school, then that is school's responsibility. They need to find strategies to deal with that.

If there is challenging behaviour at home, then that is parents responsibility.
They also need to find strategies.

You think that parents should go in and do the school's job.
Yet you don't mention the school going to the home to do the parentsjob.

Your suggestions are very one sided.

NowImNotDoingIt · 21/09/2024 09:15

Try and look at this referral as a positive. If your DD's school is as shit as it sounds , they really have shot themselves in the foot with this one. Their "plan" , is not a plan. Their refusal to implement the EP recommendations and support the EHCP process will reflect badly on them. They can't have it both ways. Your daughter is bad enough that you need to sit in reception all day on stand by, but at the same time not enough to warrant an EHCP and you're causing it all.

SS will be able to offer more (directed) support if deemed necessary and also put some pressure on the school to at least attempt to meet your daughter's needs.

Sirzy · 21/09/2024 09:17

Petitchat · 21/09/2024 09:07

If there is challenging behaviour in school, then that is school's responsibility. They need to find strategies to deal with that.

If there is challenging behaviour at home, then that is parents responsibility.
They also need to find strategies.

You think that parents should go in and do the school's job.
Yet you don't mention the school going to the home to do the parentsjob.

Your suggestions are very one sided.

Show quote history

For best results for the young person school and home need to work together.

if a parent goes to school and says we are having issues at home then as much as possible the school should support the parent (including signposting to other organisations)

teamwork is important when children are struggling. It’s not always possible from both sides but it does make a difference.

Whatafustercluck · 21/09/2024 09:19

There's a staggering amount of ignorance here about the challenges faced by SEN kids and their parents in trying to access education. In our case, it took a 6 week period of school avoidance, and the complete mental health breakdown of my then 6yo daughter before our struggles were taken seriously (undiagnosed, "fine at school"). Our (part time) senco told us not to bother applying for an echp needs assessment because they had no evidence to submit in support (they did, they were just focusing on the lack of evident learning disability because academically dd is bright). She told us that without a diagnosis it was fruitless. When she realised we weren't taking no for an answer, she asked me to write her referral form - I mean, I actually sat at her computer and typed up everything! We got the ehcp needs assessment, the Ed Psych report noted lots that the school hadn't seen, and we now have an ehcp.

Op, get that ehcp by hook or crook. If the LA turned it down, presumably the next stage is Tribunal? Ours was turned down initially, but I spent time going through their response and highlighting the litany of errors it contained, sent it back to Tribunal with additional evidence. The LA overturned their original decision before it went to Tribunal. I think you should focus your efforts on securing the ehcp first and foremost - using the involvement of children's services as additional evidence that her needs are not currently being met. Your daughter may even need a specialist setting, given that mainstream isn't working for anyone. The ehcp will be the key to unlocking more of the right support.

You are right, off rolling is a big issue - many SEN parent either choose or are forced to homeschool for this very reason. I don't even really blame the schools, it's the lack of awareness and resourcing at LA level that's to blame. Mainstream schools can't cope with children with significant additional needs, but there's a lack of alternative provision. Some are definitely much better at providing support than others. Our dd thrived in Y2 and has just moved up to Juniors from infants, where the support and understanding is truly excellent. I am fearful though of what the change to secondary may bring. But that's precisely why we fought so long and hard for an ehcp (she's also now on the waiting list for autism assessment).

GinForBreakfast · 21/09/2024 09:20

My local school was investigated for off rolling sen students. It got rid of dozens of them by making life difficult. I was part of the governance team after the investigation and saw all the reports. It does happen and it's scandalous.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:20

WhatsitWiggle · 21/09/2024 02:27

Not quite. Section 19 is essentially short-term education provision where attending school is not appropriate, whether that's medical grounds (physical or mental) or behaviour grounds - child has been or is at risk of being excluded. It will usually be the LAs agreed alternative provision provider, which could be home learning (usually self directed ie lessons sent by email), online lessons, a tutor in the home for a limited number of hours and/or small group in person sessions. It will likely be standard education only ie not therapy. It's intended to only be until the child is able to return to school (although given how long EHCPs take these days, that could run to a couple of years especially if you need to appeal). It should apply as soon as child has been out of school for 15 days, and those days don't have to be consecutive. If you're not getting anywhere with SENCO, try the safeguarding lead at the school instead and point out your child is becoming increasingly distressed and is at risk of burnout.

EOTAS is an agreed outcome of the EHCP process where no suitable education establishment (maintained or private) can be found to meet needs in the plan so the parent is instead given a personal budget and told to find suitable provision themselves. It's a hell of a lot of work, not just to argue for, but to manage thereafter.

Show quote history

Ah, I see, thank you so much for all that information. It is definitely something to think about.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:26

TheCentreCannotHold · 21/09/2024 01:42

@PickAChew really nails it: "This reflects exactly how much the actual SEN system lets down parents who aren't excellent communicators (or, as can so often be the case, have some additional needs of their own.) so much of the time, it relies on parents being able to advocate effectively and sometimes aggressively for their children just to get their basic legal right to a "suitable" education met."

This is so true and a grim reflection of systemic, ablist practices which actively disadvantage families and create, rather than remove, barriers to children and young people accessing education.

I really feel for you, OP. I'm a teacher and SEND parent and have supported pupils' families to make direct applications for ECHP needs assessments as the process schools go through is clunky and, let's face it, even the most clued-up, empathetic SENDCO in the world won't match a parent's commitment to getting their child's needs met. Local authority resources are gatekept through a cynical process of attrition and running down the clock which leads to poor outcomes for children.

For all the posters suggesting that schools do not off-roll or make mendacious referrals; this absolutely happens. The definition of off-rolling includes school leaders deliberately making a child's experience of school, or the family-school relationship, hostile or strained to the point where parents agree to their child being taken off a school's roll or request this as a result of thinly veiled coercion.

OP, my advice for you would be to lean in to the referral, be open and transparent ‐hell, ask them how they may be able to support you and make it clear you welcome their involvement. They can help with so many things. I'd take care not to be defensive, confrontational or apportioning blame; just emphasis your efforts at working with school and what it is you would like to happen.

Good luck to you and your DD. This is becoming a distressingly common reality for many of our autistic girls.

Thank you so much for your advice, it is much appreciated.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:29

NumberNotRecognised · 21/09/2024 01:43

That is just disgraceful and deliberate to antagonise the situation I’d suspect. Other students seeing her sitting in Reception in distress with her mum! Ripe for being bullied if she’s not already.

Show quote history

This is one of her issues, that she wants somewhere private to go when she is distressed. She hates it all happening in front of other DC.

OP posts:

Whatafustercluck · 21/09/2024 09:34

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:29

This is one of her issues, that she wants somewhere private to go when she is distressed. She hates it all happening in front of other DC.

Show quote history

This is really common in girls in particular because they're more socially aware. My dd has sensory dysregulation when anxious, we used to get around it by telling her to ditch the shoes and socks (which were particularly problematic for her) and slip on some comfy flip flops. This worked until she realised all the other kids were staring at her because she wasn't wearing normal footwear. She now gets stuck in a loop between not being able to tolerate normal footwear, but having no alternative she's happy to wear.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 21/09/2024 09:36

UndertheCedartree · 20/09/2024 22:50

I can assure you off rolling is a very common practice. I've seen it in action at 3 other schools as well as ours.

Yes she has a diagnosis of ASD and Anxiety. There has been no plan in place as yet. School are unhappy that I won't agree to a plan meaning I sit with her in reception all day. DD needs an EHCP but school isn't able to support my request as they have no plan...It's a mess. I have no problem engaging with school but it is crazy hard to get any communication and the SENCo is permanently unavailable as is the mental health lead.

Show quote history

I remember the earlier thread.

That was when they'd refused your idea of coming into school itself to spend time alone with your child/supervised by one member of staff - and you said in that thread that there wasn't a single other child in the school who might ever need to use those facilities and you'd only be there for fifteen minutes at most - but now you're reluctant to stay in reception because that would be all day.

Busywithsomething · 21/09/2024 09:36

To call it malicious is likely going too far but perhaps you can say they are doing it unnecessarily. I haven't got much relevant experience. DH works in education and he believes the schools sometimes refer so as to cover their own backs. They don't know the full picture but I'm sure you can put them straight and you would look wrong/ too defensive to say it's malicious now the referral has been made. Best wishes OP. Here's hoping your DD gets some help.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:38

Demonhunter · 21/09/2024 01:52

It doesn't sound like your daughter is suited to mainstream school with the scenarios you're describing. What support do you want from them, like exactly what is it you say the psych ed said?

I have a DC in Yr 9 mainstream with ASD and I know there's other at his school with various ND so I'm wondering exactly what support you say your daughter needs? It doesn't sound like its something a mainstream secondary can offer if things are as extreme as you say.

There's plenty they could be doing. Suggestions from the Ed Psych for adults to be positive in front of DD and present a united front as she will be very sensitive to criticism/perceived danger could easily be done if there was buy in by the school. There's no reason the school can't provide information about when church services are so DD can be prepared.

DD needs small goals with a plan as to how to achieve them and then a review to see what did or did not work.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:41

Brieonlybrie · 21/09/2024 03:25

I guess you never had to deal with a child with high support needs which the school wants to off-roll because the extra support they need costs money and they school doesn't want/or cannot afford it? happens sadly far too often. Been there myself. It's easier to throw families under a bus instead of putting proper support in place.

Show quote history

Yes, being a parent of a SEN DC is definitely an eye opener.

OP posts:

Matronic6 · 21/09/2024 09:45

Freshersfluforyou · 21/09/2024 08:49

Maybe the school are trying to first of all break the habit of daughter ringing her mum in a state of distress and mum dropping everything and whisking her home. I think they are probably trying to establish the idea first and foremost that going home isn't an option, before gradually trying to embed time in the classroom. The problem is, when a parent just keeps insisting on taking a child home because they are distressed amd its what they want, school don't get any chance to implement other strategies, first and foremost they are trying to find a way to keep her on the school site!

Show quote history

That's the issue they have found a way to keep her on site but there is zero plan on place to move forward, which there absolutely should be. And if there is one, OP should certainly be privy to it. There also has to be limit as to how much time they expect OP to be there and definitely should have at least been a staff member joining OP in reception to also become familiar with OP's daughter who will then be able to support in class and take over this role. The fact that none of this happened is in place says nothing is being done with any clear intent from the school.

For some context, I manage the transition of SEN and vulnerable year 6s to secondary. If I knew this was the level of provision the a school was providing I would absolutely complain to the head and SENCO and would advise other parents that there SEN provision is inadequate. Luckily, I have never worked with a school like this.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:50

FetchezLaVache · 21/09/2024 04:09

OP, FWIW I believe you too. I was reported to SS by school for neglect as DS was very thin - despite his having been very thin for several months, they coincidentally made their report the day after I told his (non-maintained special) school that I was taking him out as they had repeatedly failed to stop him being bullied and beaten up by other students. This is a school with literally more staff than pupils, btw.

He had lost weight partly because of the stress of the bullying and partly because school had failed to provide him with a quiet space to eat, as stipulated by his EHCP, because he refused to eat in the presence of noisy eaters (as unfortunately a lot of the other children were). I'd pick him up at 3.30 and he'd have eaten nothing since breakfast.

It took a ten-minute conversation for the SW to realise the referral was malicious. But she turned out to be an amazing ally and fought to get him into the mainstream school of our choice.

From what you say, your DD's school is dreadful. I have never understood why schools refuse to engage in the EHCP process. But hopefully you too will have the good fortune for this to land on the desk of someone who can see the glaring injustice of what's going on here.

I'm sorry to hear that, but glad you had a positive outcome.

The school actually has many positives. But sadly, it seems the management are really toxic.

OP posts:

Morph22010 · 21/09/2024 10:12

GinForBreakfast · 21/09/2024 09:20

My local school was investigated for off rolling sen students. It got rid of dozens of them by making life difficult. I was part of the governance team after the investigation and saw all the reports. It does happen and it's scandalous.

And this isn’t rare or isolated to a small number of schools either, it is pretty much common place in the majority of schools to a greater or lesser extent. Not blaming the teachers for this it’s just the way the whole system and funding now works, it encourages schools to want to get rid of high needs children.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 10:19

rainfallpurevividcat · 21/09/2024 04:11

All power to your elbow, OP.

I wish posters would stop spouting utter bullshit they know nothing about. Schools don't do this, schools don't do that. Yes the bloody do. Schools and local authorities try to sidestep their responsibilities all the time.

Home education is certainly not an option for everyone and all the parents I know with kids with any kind of SEN who want to or who have no choice but to stay in state provision have had to fight tooth and nail to get local authorities and schools to provide anything.

Parents are routinely blamed and gaslighted for matters caused often almost entirely by the appalling state of so many schools.

Honestly, at times I feel like I'm going mad. The Head has been telling me for months that the school cannot meet my DD's needs. 'This is a mainstream school...' and on and on. I have it by email that the school can't meet DD's needs. Then we go in front of the LA at the meeting and all of a sudden the school can meet her needs! On the first day back we ended up in her office as DD was scared of being suspended again due to being distressed. She told us that they absolutely could not send her home due to her bring distressed as 'they can't diagnose a mental illness'. But suddenly in the meeting of course they would send her home if she was distressed. Apparently I wanted her sent home due to 'mental illness' which they can't possibly do but of course if she was distressed she would be sent home. I have it all in writing as I always create a paper trail. But they deliberately gaslit me in the meeting.

OP posts:

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 10:22

rainfallpurevividcat · 21/09/2024 04:20

And I say that as someone who loved DDs' primary school so much that I was on the PTA for five years and regularly helped at school. DH was a school governor there for ten years. We are both in professional jobs and did well in school ourselves. We were passionate supporters of state education until four years ago.

DD1 went to grammar school and is off to university. DD2 was utterly failed by secondary school and the local authority. We are very fortunate to be able to afford online school.

I'm sorry to hear your DD struggled too. I'm on the PTA at my DD's school! Honestly, hopefully just makes the Head look even more of a dick.

OP posts:

Demonhunter · 21/09/2024 10:28

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 09:38

There's plenty they could be doing. Suggestions from the Ed Psych for adults to be positive in front of DD and present a united front as she will be very sensitive to criticism/perceived danger could easily be done if there was buy in by the school. There's no reason the school can't provide information about when church services are so DD can be prepared.

DD needs small goals with a plan as to how to achieve them and then a review to see what did or did not work.

Show quote history

Pre preparation is one of the things on my DS's support plan, so there's no reason they can't do that. There was an occasion it didn't happen when the SENDCO was on maternity (she's good at keeping everything in check) and it did have an impact, and I did have mention disability indirect discrimination to the principal to get it sorted, but it was sorted after that.

When you say perceived criticism, what do you mean by that exactly? Is it more framing errors in a positive way rather than saying "this is the wrong way" ?

Again with the United front, what exactly is meant by that? Im not asking to be awkward just his primary did ask for a lot of input from me when devising plans of action so I know a little of how best to approach it with suggestions to them that they will find hard to refuse.

Bluemonkey2029 · 21/09/2024 10:30

I believe you OP. People saying that schools wouldn't do this are either good, hardworking teachers/school staff who wouldn't do this themselves (the majority of people I'm sure) or just people that want to believe it doesn't happen. But like any profession, especially over-stretched professions, teaching also has people who are stressed, over-worked, power-mad, not very nice or quite often just not very good at their jobs and yes this does happen. I'm sorry you are going through this.

Original poster

UndertheCedartree · 21/09/2024 10:46

iwouldnthavebelievedit · 21/09/2024 05:39

once upon a time i would have said schools absolutely don't make inappropriate referrals. 30 years professional experience working in safeguarding.
but i have a child who is struggling in school and doesn't feel safe there. his medical management plan has been a disaster and is being rewritten.
while some staff are trying to help, one is a narcissistic, gas lighting liar. i'm gobsmacked at his behaviour. to the extent that i have refused to have any verbal conversation with him without an adult witness.
i am getting my child in to school everyday but i would not put it past him to make a safeguarding referral because i have challenged his behaviour. he has already spoken to another agency behind my back and exaggerated the situation to the extent that agency has cancelled a much needed appointment as they felt things were too bad based on his hyperbole.
he is colluding with my equally as narcissistic and gaslighting highly abusive ex who is relishing pairing up to bash me as a mother and both are undermining me even though i am the protective parent.
i honestly would never have believed this was possible until i am in the receiving end of it.
i am consenting to support and ed psych for my child but i have turned down Early Help as there isn't anything they can offer that we need.
i must pull up a PP who said schools don't tell you if they make a safeguarding referral. unless discussing it with a parent escalates risk of significant harm to the child or others, Working Together to Safeguard Children is very clear that discussion with a parent is absolutely standard behaviour.
i would recommend documenting absolutely everything @UndertheCedartree and try and find support from autism organisations who may be able to support with an advocate to attend meetings with you and support you because it is draining trying to do it all on your own.

Thank you for your advice. I have for some time been following any meeting up with an email. So I have quite a lot of a paper trail.

My mental health is really suffering. I came out of the meeting in tears. I walked out the school and just sunk down in front of the school gate in tears. In that moment I just didn't know what to do. Luckily another parent appeared who gave me a hug and sorted me out with the direct number for the inclusion team at the LA.

The LA kept telling me Sendiass would support me in a meeting but they told me they have no capacity to do so. They gave me details of someone else to ask who said they only deal with child protection. I also messaged the local ASD charity who didn't get back to me. I did have a friend to come but the school changed the date of the meeting at the last minute so she couldn't come. This was a meeting that I asked for at the end of last term. I suggested dates, the school just refused to engage. Eventually they agreed to a meeting and sent possible dates to everyone except me. I was just told this is the date. Everyone else sat in the meeting room waiting for the meeting to start. Except me - I had to wait in reception. Then once it was about to start I was brought in and barely given a chance to sit down let alone get my papers out before the Head was trying to start the meeting. It was clearly done to put me on the back foot at every stage. And the Head didn't even join us at the table she sat at her desk!!

OP posts: