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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that putting explosives in devices such as pagers and walkie talkies can lead to indiscriminate injuries and killings

528 replies

cakeorwine · 18/09/2024 18:27

Let's get the first thing out of the way - it's not right to fire missiles and rockets at people - as that can cause indiscriminate injuries as well.

Putting explosives in devices such as pagers and walkie talkies - it sounds clever. Just send a signal and an explosion goes off potentially injuring and killing your opponent who has it. It will also disrupt communication methods.

But once you put the explosive in it, you lose control of where it goes and when it gets blown up. It could be a child has it. It could be on a plane - and might not be picked up by security.

You don't know where it ends up. Which means that it has the potential for unintended consequences.

What about any that didn't go off? Are there objects that have been booby trapped and are just potentially waiting to explode - and who knows where they are? The thing about booby traps is that you just don't know who will set them off.

Booby traps seem to be against the International Humanitarian Law if they can injure civillians.

Customary IHL - Rule 80. Booby-Traps (icrc.org)

https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule80

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
Auvergne63 · 20/09/2024 15:25

Zzippit · 20/09/2024 15:23

Are you serious?

Yes. I just like to understand what you mean by this.

Zzippit · 20/09/2024 15:31

Auvergne63 · 20/09/2024 15:25

Yes. I just like to understand what you mean by this.

Ok, it's quite simple I mean it's hyperbolic nonsense. You can look up the definition of hyperbolic for further assistance in understanding.

AgentJohnson · 20/09/2024 15:41

Or is the issue with Israel defending itself at all?

Nice try. Actions like this and the terrible conditions in Gaza will only serve to swell the ranks of the groups that Israel supposedly want to defeat.

LoremIpsumCici · 20/09/2024 15:45

Do you really think Israel can invade Lebanon?
Of course they have the military might to do so and have been drilling it and saying hints about a northern front and there are very recent videos of IDF commanders saying Lebanon is part of their promised land and they will go and take it.

This would be their 3rd invasion of Lebanon.
Last time the stated objective was to go after terrorists aligned with the PLO and that led to massacres in Palestinian refugee camps in Lebanon plus some added territory.

I suppose this time the stated objective is to go after Hizbollah terrorists aligned with Iran, push the border north a bit, and then annex that land too.

Mellowdramadrama · 20/09/2024 16:11

EasternStandard · 19/09/2024 15:45

You do realise terrorist is a legal position in the UK

Are you saying Israel meets that criteria? And who do you think should not?

You can't blame people for being critical of the IDF and the Israeli government. The IDF regularly record themselves committing war crimes. They even kill Palestinians and throw their bodies off buildings. Utterly barbaric!

BigDecisionWorthIt · 20/09/2024 16:22

TeatimeForTheSoul · 19/09/2024 23:21

Genocide is a war crime
Bombing refugee camps is a war crime
Bombing schools, churches, universities, hospitals and generally destroy an entire infrastructure are war crimes
The Israeli government are committing crimes so there are no legal combatents in this, on either side,

Not 100% accurate.

Whilst schools, churches, hospitals and CNI all have protected status under the Law of Armed Conflict, that status is lost if they are being used for "military purposes".
Unfortunately, that seems to be the recognised MO for Islamic terrorist organisations. They'll use these places for those purposes in the hope it'll deter their opposition from conducting strikes etc. Common place for Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis etc to use human shields.

EasternStandard · 20/09/2024 16:26

Mellowdramadrama · 20/09/2024 16:11

You can't blame people for being critical of the IDF and the Israeli government. The IDF regularly record themselves committing war crimes. They even kill Palestinians and throw their bodies off buildings. Utterly barbaric!

There are still legal ramifications for who can be supported in the UK. Hence MNHQ warning people with a link

It was less about being critical and more about following those laws

redalex261 · 20/09/2024 17:00

Being cynical the choice of pagers and walkie talkies is a pretty good idea as a booby trap. No-one but terrorist cells are using these archaic devices - every other person is using normal communication methods. Those using the devices have chosen them because they are not easily tracked by modern surveillance. Therefore booby trapping these devices targets the only known users. Is that fair to those killed or maimed as unintended collateral damage? No - it’s terrible. It’s unlikely these devices are left lying around for civilians to play with. Anyone touching them would probably be in big trouble with the owner! But the whole thing is a shit show. I don’t think in past war situations the public elsewhere ever really got an inkling of the impact on civilians living in war zones. Hezbollah have always located their cells and operatives in the midst of civilian areas - cynically to avoid military attacks. They are not an organisation that adheres to the international rules of conflict are they?

Avertmyeyes · 20/09/2024 17:04

redalex261 · 20/09/2024 17:00

Being cynical the choice of pagers and walkie talkies is a pretty good idea as a booby trap. No-one but terrorist cells are using these archaic devices - every other person is using normal communication methods. Those using the devices have chosen them because they are not easily tracked by modern surveillance. Therefore booby trapping these devices targets the only known users. Is that fair to those killed or maimed as unintended collateral damage? No - it’s terrible. It’s unlikely these devices are left lying around for civilians to play with. Anyone touching them would probably be in big trouble with the owner! But the whole thing is a shit show. I don’t think in past war situations the public elsewhere ever really got an inkling of the impact on civilians living in war zones. Hezbollah have always located their cells and operatives in the midst of civilian areas - cynically to avoid military attacks. They are not an organisation that adheres to the international rules of conflict are they?

100%

BellaBionda · 20/09/2024 17:04

redalex261 · 20/09/2024 17:00

Being cynical the choice of pagers and walkie talkies is a pretty good idea as a booby trap. No-one but terrorist cells are using these archaic devices - every other person is using normal communication methods. Those using the devices have chosen them because they are not easily tracked by modern surveillance. Therefore booby trapping these devices targets the only known users. Is that fair to those killed or maimed as unintended collateral damage? No - it’s terrible. It’s unlikely these devices are left lying around for civilians to play with. Anyone touching them would probably be in big trouble with the owner! But the whole thing is a shit show. I don’t think in past war situations the public elsewhere ever really got an inkling of the impact on civilians living in war zones. Hezbollah have always located their cells and operatives in the midst of civilian areas - cynically to avoid military attacks. They are not an organisation that adheres to the international rules of conflict are they?

They are not and nor is Israel.

BellaBionda · 20/09/2024 17:05

EasternStandard · 20/09/2024 16:26

There are still legal ramifications for who can be supported in the UK. Hence MNHQ warning people with a link

It was less about being critical and more about following those laws

There is no law against not supporting Israel’s actions in Gaza and Lebanon.
I see you are still very confused.

EasternStandard · 20/09/2024 19:17

BellaBionda · 20/09/2024 17:05

There is no law against not supporting Israel’s actions in Gaza and Lebanon.
I see you are still very confused.

I am fine thanks.

If you are unsure read MNHQ's post and link

BellaBionda · 20/09/2024 19:24

EasternStandard · 20/09/2024 19:17

I am fine thanks.

If you are unsure read MNHQ's post and link

I am not unsure

Fescue · 20/09/2024 20:18

AgentJohnson · 20/09/2024 15:41

Or is the issue with Israel defending itself at all?

Nice try. Actions like this and the terrible conditions in Gaza will only serve to swell the ranks of the groups that Israel supposedly want to defeat.

Well, they will defeat them. Recent military history has shown that those who lack the co-ordinated intelligence to seize and maintain the initiative always surrender or disband. Peace talks are the effect, never the cause. Recruit as much as they want but Hezbollah will ultimately fail.

Fescue · 20/09/2024 20:22

BigDecisionWorthIt · 20/09/2024 16:22

Not 100% accurate.

Whilst schools, churches, hospitals and CNI all have protected status under the Law of Armed Conflict, that status is lost if they are being used for "military purposes".
Unfortunately, that seems to be the recognised MO for Islamic terrorist organisations. They'll use these places for those purposes in the hope it'll deter their opposition from conducting strikes etc. Common place for Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis etc to use human shields.

Which is why those places are bombed. It will still not stop terrorist organisations from incorrectly claiming "war crimes". But then neither Hamas nor Hezbollah are experienced adherents to international law.

MyrrAgain · 20/09/2024 21:04

itsmabeline · 19/09/2024 23:57

@HelenHen no other country will sink to such depths of depravity.

Even if we only look at wars going on right now, mass rape is a current tool of war, a little bit more depraved than targeted attacks on individuals.

Chemical warfare, nuclear warfare, remember Hiroshima and Nagasaki? A little worse on the depravity scale I'd say.

Yep but…. No Jews so no news. Why mumsnet allows such vile attempts to vilify and utter bollocks to be spewed I’ll never know

HelenHen · 20/09/2024 23:13

MyrrAgain · 20/09/2024 21:04

Yep but…. No Jews so no news. Why mumsnet allows such vile attempts to vilify and utter bollocks to be spewed I’ll never know

There is evidence that Palestinian prisoners have been raped... and is chemical warfare as bad as losing your eyes in a terrorist attack? Not a question most people can answer. How do you measure these things? Both pretty depraved acts tbh.

I read tonight about Palestinian bodies being thrown off rooftops, etc. There is zero humanity... depraved is the correct word for it.

ToBeDetermined · 20/09/2024 23:39

*Whilst schools, churches, hospitals and CNI all have protected status under the Law of Armed Conflict, that status is lost if they are being used for "military purposes"

Not 100% accurate. The protections differ slightly between schools, churches and medical, but for hospitals it’s not if they are being used for “military purposes” but if they are being used to commit “an act harmful to the enemy” which is very much more specific.

“Specific protection of medical establishments and units (including hospitals) is the general rule under IHL. Therefore, specific protection to which hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used by a party to the conflict to commit, outside their humanitarian functions, an "act harmful to the enemy". In case of doubt as to whether medical units of establishments are used to commit an "act harmful to the enemy", they should be presumed not to be so used.

The expression "act harmful to the enemy" is not defined under IHL. This body of law merely singles out a few acts expressly recognized as not being harmful to the enemy, such as the carrying or using of individual light weapon in self-defense or defense of wounded and sick; armed guarding of a medical facility; or the presence in a medical facility of sick or wounded combatants no longer taking part in hostilities.

Notwithstanding the lack of an agreed definition, the rationale for a loss of protection is clear. Medical establishments and units enjoy protection because of their function of providing care for the wounded and sick. When they are used to interfere directly or indirectly in military operations, and thereby cause harm to the enemy, the rationale for their specific protection is removed. This would be the case for example if a hospital is used as a base from which to launch an attack; as an observation post to transmit information of military value; as a weapons depot; as a center for liaison with fighting troops; or as a shelter for able-bodied combatants.”

Before carrying out an attack on a medical establishment or unit that has lost its protected status, a warning must be given. Where appropriate, this should include a time limit, which must go unheeded before an attack is permitted. The purpose of issuing a warning is to allow those committing an "act harmful to the enemy" to terminate such act, or – if they persist – to ultimately allow for safe evacuation of the wounded and sick who are not responsible for such conduct and who should not become the victims of it.

Where such a warning has remained unheeded, the enemy is no longer obliged to refrain from interfering with the work of a medical establishment or unit, or to take positive measures to assist it in its work. Even then, humanitarian considerations relating to the welfare of the wounded and sick being cared for in the facility may not be disregarded. They must be spared and, as far as possible, active measures for their safety taken.

This derives from the obligation to respect and protect the wounded and sick as well as the general rules on the conduct of hostilities that apply to attacks on any military objective. Notably, an attacking party remains bound by the principle of proportionality. The military advantage likely to be gained from attacking medical establishments or units that have lost their protected status should be carefully weighed against the humanitarian consequences likely to result from the damage or destruction caused to those facilities: such an attack may have significant incidental second- and third-order effects on the delivery of health care in the short, middle and long-term.

An attacking party remains also bound by the obligation to take precautions in attack, in particular to do everything feasible to avoid or at least minimize harm to patients and medical personnel who may have nothing to do with those acts and for whom the humanitarian consequences will be especially dire. The following measures should be taken to minimize the direct and indirect impact of such an attack on the provision of health-care services, whenever feasible and operationally relevant:

• Prepare a contingency plan to address the estimated disruption to health-care services and to re-establish full delivery as soon as possible.
• Consider measures both for the evacuation of patients and medical personnel and for them to be taken properly in charge.
Interrupt the attack if the facility no longer meets the criteria leading to the loss of protected status (e.g. combatants have fled from the medical facility).
• After the attack, facilitate or implement measures for the rapid restoration of health-care services (e.g. provide military medical support for the civilian medical facility).”

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says

The protection of hospitals during armed conflicts: What the law says

According to international humanitarian law (IHL), health establishments and units, including hospitals, should not be attacked. This protection extends to the wounded and sick as well as to medical staff and means of transport. The rule has few except...

https://www.icrc.org/en/document/protection-hospitals-during-armed-conflicts-what-law-says

ToBeDetermined · 20/09/2024 23:44

Fescue · 20/09/2024 20:22

Which is why those places are bombed. It will still not stop terrorist organisations from incorrectly claiming "war crimes". But then neither Hamas nor Hezbollah are experienced adherents to international law.

How about the UN? Or HRW? Or the ICJ? Or the ICC prosecutor? Or the ICRC?

Most of the reports on IDF war crimes have not been alleged first by Hamas or Hezbollah, but by one of the above.

Avertmyeyes · 21/09/2024 00:14

HelenHen · 20/09/2024 23:13

There is evidence that Palestinian prisoners have been raped... and is chemical warfare as bad as losing your eyes in a terrorist attack? Not a question most people can answer. How do you measure these things? Both pretty depraved acts tbh.

I read tonight about Palestinian bodies being thrown off rooftops, etc. There is zero humanity... depraved is the correct word for it.

The bodies off the roof might be required due to condition of the building, lack of equipment to clear another way, no body bags. Risk of booby-trap IED.
Have you ever seen a dead body being brought down a narrow flight of stairs?
I did in my listed building in UK. The private ambulance staff really struggled w the body which was at least in a bag, it was going end over end down 4 flights of narrow stairs. Banging against walls, flipping over at turns in steps, sliding it down steps. The was no respect, just guys doing a job which was challenging due to stairs, weight, shape and size of body.

Depraved, no. Depraving a dead body is something else entirely. Like some of the stuff from 7 Oct.

BellaBionda · 21/09/2024 06:50

Well exactly. BOTH sides have been accused of war crimes by the UN and ICC.

HellsBalls · 21/09/2024 07:10

I have noticed that the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel, over 9000 since last October, has ceased. So the pager scam was massively successful. Everyone who was anyone in that terrorist organization has been seriously injured or killed.

NotTerfNorCis · 21/09/2024 07:15

Ponoka7 · 18/09/2024 18:30

That's the point. The show of power and the aim of instilling fear.

The definition of terrorism - if the motive is political, which it was.

BellaBionda · 21/09/2024 07:25

HellsBalls · 21/09/2024 07:10

I have noticed that the indiscriminate firing of rockets into Israel, over 9000 since last October, has ceased. So the pager scam was massively successful. Everyone who was anyone in that terrorist organization has been seriously injured or killed.

The rockets into Israel won’t stop. This is just an escalation of conflict. Don’t be naive.

HelenHen · 21/09/2024 07:51

Avertmyeyes · 21/09/2024 00:14

The bodies off the roof might be required due to condition of the building, lack of equipment to clear another way, no body bags. Risk of booby-trap IED.
Have you ever seen a dead body being brought down a narrow flight of stairs?
I did in my listed building in UK. The private ambulance staff really struggled w the body which was at least in a bag, it was going end over end down 4 flights of narrow stairs. Banging against walls, flipping over at turns in steps, sliding it down steps. The was no respect, just guys doing a job which was challenging due to stairs, weight, shape and size of body.

Depraved, no. Depraving a dead body is something else entirely. Like some of the stuff from 7 Oct.

Are you actually serious? Yes of course it's depraved - kicking or throwing a dead body off a roof. Will you defend anything?

Even the IDF agree:

"This is a serious incident that does not coincide with IDF values and the expectations from IDF Soldiers"

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