to think that putting explosives in devices such as pagers and walkie talkies can lead to indiscriminate injuries and killings

[cakeorwine]

Let's get the first thing out of the way - it's not right to fire missiles and rockets at people - as that can cause indiscriminate injuries as well.

Putting explosives in devices such as pagers and walkie talkies - it sounds clever. Just send a signal and an explosion goes off potentially injuring and killing your opponent who has it. It will also disrupt communication methods.

But once you put the explosive in it, you lose control of where it goes and when it gets blown up. It could be a child has it. It could be on a plane - and might not be picked up by security.

You don't know where it ends up. Which means that it has the potential for unintended consequences.

What about any that didn't go off? Are there objects that have been booby trapped and are just potentially waiting to explode - and who knows where they are? The thing about booby traps is that you just don't know who will set them off.

Booby traps seem to be against the International Humanitarian Law if they can injure civillians.

Customary IHL - Rule 80. Booby-Traps (icrc.org)

@Auvergne63 and @MissyB1 ,

I definitely and unequivocally condemn Israel’s conduct in Gaza, although not their right to destroy Hamas in as much as that is possible. I also think that Israel needs elections and to throw out the religious racist parties who are doing so little to aid Israel’s long term future.

There are a lot of things I would like Israel to do, including ceding the occupied territories back (in exchange for international security guarantees) and fully and wholeheartedly implementing a two state solution.

But, even if they did all of that, it wouldn’t improve their security without addressing the bad actor in the area, Iran, and her proxies, Hezbollah and Hamas. It is disingenuous to believe that these two terrorist organisations came out of nowhere or are somehow due to Israel. They have been formed and nurtured by Iran in order for it to project regional power. Israel has been engaged in a Cold War with Iran for years , which now seems to be heating up.

Israel is a tiny country and, regardless of the U.S support and military prowess, genuinely is engaged in an existential struggle. In a time of drone warfare, it would be easy for a multi pronged attack to overwhelm the iron dome.

So Israel have to be preemptive and defend themselves first and foremost. This thread is about a targeted attack on illegal combatants, not in uniform, and operating out of a country which they, effectively, occupy. I really don’t understand how anyone, regardless of their overall view, can think this type of attack is unethical or immoral.

As long as you accept that wars happen and people get killed in them, this is as good as it gets.

Thank you for your post.
I really don’t understand how anyone, regardless of their overall view, can think this type of attack is unethical or immoral.
I don't see the actions of the Israel government against Hezbollah in terms of being unethical or immoral ( both are subjective concepts) but in terms of respecting international laws, laws that Israel has signed up to uphold.
So Israel have to be preemptive and defend themselves first and foremost.
I don't agree with you on this because being pre -emptive makes Israel the aggressor especially since Israel and Lebanon have not formally at war with each other.

A government's first duty is the protection of its people.

Israel is blocking emergency aid to Gaza
Children are starving to death
Is this also part of their "defense"?

@Auvergne63 ,

‘I don't agree with you on this because being pre -emptive makes Israel the aggressor especially since Israel and Lebanon have not formally at war with each other.’

Hezbollah isn’t Lebanon, they are effectively Iranian occupying forces of a part of Lebanon, and they have been firing missiles at Israel for years.

I suspect that, ex Hezbollah, Israel and Lebanon would be coexisting peacefully.

Meaningless statement if you file whatever actions you like under "protection of my people"
Hamas and Hizbollah would say the same. Hizbollah was formed in response to Israel's invasion of Lebanon (after a fairly quiet period)
Its very debatable that Israel's foreign policy serve to protect their people.

No, that's not what I said at all. This isn't tit-for-tat, this was a targeted strike against Hezbollah terrorists which resulted in far lower civilian casualties than any other method that comes to mind to achieve the intended result. In the coming weeks it may become known how effective it was - despite one poster claiming to know exactly what the objective was and whether it was met before the dust had even settled. If one or two kids got in the way of an operation to disrupt Hezbollah then that's unfortunate.

It was Hezbollah buying and using the devices though, so it wasn't indiscriminate, it was targetted.
Less collateral damage than rockets or larger explosions.

What's that got to do with pager bombs in Beirut?

You do understand the link between what is happening in Lebanon and Gaza ?
It’s also relevant to the discussion around the narrative of Israel defending themselves vs everyone else being terrorists. I’d say starving millions to death is as terrorist as you can get

That occupation ended 24 years ago. It has been 18 years since any Israeli troops occupied Lebanon. What is Hezbollah's excuse for the last 11 months of bombing?

You have two vile terrorist organisations aiming to kill and maim as many people as possible. Neither side cares who is affected by their ordinance.

These psychopaths don't view people as having any value, they are just the enemy.

To clarify, I don't view the ordinary people of Gaza, Isreal or Lebanon as terrorists, just the Netanyahu govt, Hezbollah and Hamas (and their supporters). I view the ordinary citizens on all sides as the victims.

The link being that Hezbollah started its fresh bombing campaign following Hamas' Oct 7th attack? What do you think that Hezbollah intended to happen when they started launching rockets? They're no peacekeeping force. If Hezbollah had done nothing, then Israel would have ignored them. There's only a link because Hezbollah wanted there to be a link.

I don't condone many of the things Israel has done in Gaza by the way (the goal of dismantling Hamas is a valid objective, but some of the methods are objectionable). But that doesn‘t give Hezbollah an excuse to stir things up even more.

Maybe read up on the history between Israel and Hizbollah a bit? It is quite clear why they are attacking. Doesn’t mean I support them attacking before you jump on that sentence.

Defend themselves by killing 40000 civilians using terrorists tactics?? Exploding pagers in supermarkets?? Israel are the terrorists here too.

In the UK it's a legal position not a matter of who you happen to support. MNHQ have put up some links

You believe Israel are terrorists?. Would you care to share your source?

This attack was the very definition of discriminate, as opposed to indiscriminate. It specifically blew up devices that were given out to terrorist fighters. As sad as it may be, the presence of civilians and inevitable, although minimal, collateral damage, doesn't make this attack indiscriminate.

what do you mean source?
yes I believe the Israeli government are guilty of war crimes.

It's terror tactics and it's unacceptable. I say that as someone who largely supports Israel

You do realise terrorist is a legal position in the UK

Are you saying Israel meets that criteria? And who do you think should not?

Nice bit of distortion there... In your previous posts you explicitly called Israel " terrorists ". One would believe that you have used objective sources in order to reach this conclusion, no?

Yes I think their actions meet the criteria’s of terrorism and war criminals. Easily.

What do you mean objective sources? Is the UN objective enough for you? You do know what is going on in Gaza?