Am at a loss to how to deal with 13 yo stealing

[applebananagraphs]

My dd2 is 13 and I have no clue how to deal with her. I have tried everything, reminding her, telling her off, explaining to her why its not right, all to no effect. Grounding is nothing because she rarely goes out with friends, and its impossible to remove her phone.

She is really rude, like insulting and hurling personal attacks at her 16yo sister and me. Every night when we have dinner I get called a useless cook and she criticises everything I cook and refuses to finish her food.

The thing that bothers us most is she has the habit of stealing from her sister and I. She uses dd1's perfume without permission and she messes with her stuff. I strongly suspect she has stolen my money before and she definitely steals my skin care and make up from my wardrobe. I have no clue how to deal with her

Can you make the connection between your unhappy daughter and her essentially absent father? She's got very little she can control in her life, so she's exerting control where she can. Yes you need to draw boundaries, but painful as it is, maybe you need to look at how your marriage is working for your daughter just now. How's your older daughter doing? How do you feel about it? Are you happy with your husband as things stand?

You say she refuses to eat all her food every night, could she really be criticising your cooking and then refusing to eat it all because she's actually developed an issue with food, and trying to hide the fact I wonder?

Is she a healthy weight? You need to look for any signs as to why she's lashing out at you.

I don't want to hurt you at what is a painful time for your family, but your family sounds very unhappy.

Your husband sounds, while mostly absent under the excuse of providing, controlling and domineering. You sound a bit scared of him. You don't want to 'make him mad' but that's preventing you making decisions that would benefit your family. And he doesn't get to make unilateral decisions when he's barely around to parent in person. What would it be like if he was around more? Do your children witness this controlling behaviour first hand? How does he 'get mad'?

Your daughter is exhibiting both typical teenage behaviour and other worrying signs outside the norm. I think the phone is possibly a bit of a red herring as she seems to be clinging to it for comfort. As another pp suggested, I'd really think she needs therapy to find out what's going on with her.

My mother would have said I was a very sulky and impossible teenager (not badly behaved) but I basically disconnected from them because I was sexually assaulted from 11-12. I knew from their relationship with me before that I could never go to them and tell them (because they were in some ways also quite controlling and had anger issues... sound familiar?) so I just stopped trying to have a relationship with them. Even now in my 30s I have a strained relationship with them and they have no idea why and would never try and find out. They know I've had therapy but they're bewildered by it.

I'm not trying to scare you but my first reaction after reading was that your daughter sounds very unhappy. And my second was that your husband sounds unpleasant. And the third is that you're only addressing the very fringes of her behaviour - what you call 'stealing', wondering why someone would say she sounds happy because she has 'everything', worrying about her phone - but have you tried sitting and just talking to her, when she's not in a rage?

Thinking I must have grown up in a strange family/time.
We fought like cats and dogs - not physically as we left early childhood - but arguing one day best mates the next. Insulting each other? Constantly. ( But you insult my brother, and you will know about it) Ever found a frog in your bed ? Muuuuum! Officially traumatised.
My mum was the worst cook in the world. 'Don't eat it, then.'
'Stealing' perfume? Come off it. Steal and hide/dispose of a bottle is different to having a squirt?
My little sister would help herself from my wardrobe. I wanted a big sis like my friend - the best I could do was nick my brother's Brut, or their (too big) shirts. I wasn't into skin care, but if I was, I'd have opened the drawer and helped my self to my Mum's, who would have shown me how to use it. Oh dear, theft and disrespect!
Stealing money, that's a different matter - but you only suspect - be sure before you deal with that. Intentionally depriving you or her sister of treasured goods, taking them and hiding them or disposing of them needs looking at, as she is angry, but a lot of this is being 13.
You expect a fight if you take her phone? Punching the walls? Firstly I'd be looking at her menstrual cycle, then I would want to know what was on that phone.
You sound very insular people. Do you not share?
'Muuum, she's wearing my jumper!' 'Give it back, you have plenty of your own.'
I'm living in a strange world, where having a dab at Mum's cleanser or a squirt of someone's perfume is stealing.
Stealing my husbands razor in a minute, my legs need doing, cannot be arsed to get mine.

I’d cut her phone off and any privileges she might have. Basics only until her behaviour improves. She’s got the upper hand in your home and things will only get worse unless you turn this around

What happens when you let the dust settle and talk with her when she's calm, does the response change? My dd will trot out the "I don't care" line out of spite and in the heat of the moment. But when she (and I!) are calmer, the response is different. She's 7, though, not 13.

I second what others have said about your dh having no right to dictate when or how to support your dd when he's away so much and you're left dealing with the situation. She needs help, as do you and your other dd. Both my dh and I and our 13yo ds have locks on our doors, because when dd is dysregulated, she doesn't respect personal boundaries. Your other dd needs to know that her bedroom is her safe space.

If accessing money for counselling etc is difficult then I'd recommend two things: 1. Reading The Explosive Child (to help you more immediately with the challenges). 2. Referral to CAMHS (for longer term mental health support for your dd). I agree with a pp that her picking fault with the food you cook and then refusing to ear it could be an indication of a more deep seated eating disorder.

There are a lot of amateur psychologists on here! We have no idea whether she is unhappy or just does things to push boundaries and finds that there are zero consequences so carries on doing them.

I think the responses to stealing would be very different if OP’s daughter had been stealing from their daughter at school! And that is what will happen if it isn’t nipped in the bud.

Reducing screen time or taking the phone is win/win. She will probably feel a lot better if her screen time is reduced anyway and have to engage with her family more. And who is to know what is going on online.

There need to be meaningful consequences in terms of lost privileges for theft (and rudeness). Support is all about help and praise, but also about meaningful boundaries. And privileges can be earned back by good behaviour.

I’m echoing PPs who have said if you can afford fancy perfumes, face creams, crystals and smartphones then you can certainly afford a bloomin’ lock for your older DD’s bedroom door.

And you can also, with even more certainty, afford to cancel her phone contract (or shut down her usage of internet), since this costs nothing at all.

Like others I am concerned about your future relationship with your older DD. You’re failing to protect her. The situation is terribly unfair on her. She’ll look back and think she meant nothing to you, if you don’t act now to get control of her sister.

I have no words (at least no polite ones) re your husband.

Most children don’t want to be behaving badly, and they rarely enjoy it.

They are trying to communicate something, sometimes subconsciously. She is struggling somehow and needs support. She is trying to find a way to meet an unmet need in herself.

More boundaries are needed but that can be done firmly while still being supportive.

how often is your husband away @applebananagraphs?

This was my DD2 at the same age. When she turned 18 (about 10 years ago) she was diagnosed with ADHD. It made a huge amount of sense, especially the impulsiveness.
In any event she improved a lot at 17 when she left school.

It’s the phone, it’s the phone, it’s the phone all day long. Started acting out at 11? When did she get the phone? (bet it was 11). What's she watching? Do you check it!?

You TAKE the phone - get husband on board. She will be absolutely awful for several days before she simmers down. Do not relent, no matter the level of tantrum. Start setting boundaries - you are the parents, this is not good for her mental health.

The “stealing” - not really an issue, teens do use siblings/mum’s beauty products. It’s annoying but not stealing.

You are the adult and in charge. The phone needs removing until she can behave treat the household with respect.
If she smashes up your house you call the police.
My sd was similar ( although she didn't smash things up) in that she stole and was addicted to her phone. She hates our house as we made her have phone free time and stuck to it whereas at mums it was available all the time. She was being groomed and this led to the poor behaviour as they were isolating her from us by telling her we were awful.
Take the phone and spend some one on one time

Or maybe small scale. A lock box that other daughter can put stuff in that only she had the key for.

Almost always, like 9 months a year

I’m imagining that is adding to the problem!!!

You are the adult and in charge. The phone needs removing until she can behave and treat the household with respect.
If she smashes up your house you call the police.
My sd was similar ( although she didn't smash things up but she did break our things sneakily) in that she stole and was addicted to her phone. She hates our house as we made her have phone free time and stuck to it whereas at mums it was available all the time. She was being groomed and this led to the poor behaviour as they were isolating her from us by telling her we were awful so they could continue with what they were doing.
Take the phone, go through every app and history browser and spend some one on one time with her. Until the cycle breaks it will continue and as the adult you are the one who will have to lead this as difficult as it sounds.
It probably isn't as awful as our situation but there clearly something heavy that's going on to make her so angry and withdrawn

Can you disconnect the contract? So she only has PAYGO? Then she has to find the .iney to pay her own phone bills if she kicks off?

No, I cannot make the connection between dd2's behavior and dh being away. dd1 is going fine but shes just a bit too laid back. I am happy with dh as things stamd and there has been no tension between dh and I.

Your DD needs help. I don't think this is within the range of "normal" teenage behaviour (whatever that is!). Start the ball rolling with GP/CAHMS as the waiting list is very long. Look into whether there might be neurodiversity there. DS2 was very oppositional and explosive and now has an ADHD diagnosis as an adult. Talk to the school about your concerns and find out whether they have seen any issues (DS2 was way less oppositional at school though - they never expressed any concerns).

Get a lock for your DD1's bedroom. Saying you "need access" is no excuse. She needs to feel that her stuff is safe and you're not helping. This isn't normal sisterly "borrowing"

Your DD2 is struggling with something. Don't just focus on the "symptoms" and ignore the root cause.

Stealing can be about trying to fill a feeling of emptiness and anxiety by obtaining something; it can be a stand in for a share of love; or it can be to try to have something (non physical) the person you are stealing from has; it can be to show anger to the person you are stealing from.

(You have not mentioned shoplifting.)

It definitely sounds as though your DD needs counselling, help and love.

Please do not take this as meant in an unkind way but you said,

she definitely steals my skin care and make up from my wardrobe

To me it is unbelievable that you call a thirteen year old girl doing this stealing.

It must be one of the most common, normal, age-typical things a young teenage girl could do!

It makes me wonder how you are perceiving her. It seems to be that you have decided she is bad.

She's pushing boundaries which is typical of that age. You do have to pick your battles though alongside putting down non negotiable ground rules (keep them simple) - we speak to people with respect in this house (and model it) and we do not take/use other people's stuff without asking. If you do these things here are the consequences (put screen time limits on her phone). And stick to it.

Her father is absent and she feels she can push you around and do what she wants. She knows you're frightened of her. Has her dh spoken to her? My dd13 has a healthy fear of her dad. He just needs to put on a stern voice and say 'do not speak to my wife like that etc' and she immediately adjusts her behaviour. The fact that your older dd doesn't seem affected by her absent father is irrelevant. Everyone is different.

What's she like in school?

I honestly don’t think you need to go for counselling/CAHMS etc until you have tried the basics. If they fail, then, of course, you need to do something differently.

Two things leap out at me: unsupervised screen time and lack of meaningful consequences for her actions. I would also ask what happens to her phone overnight and what her sleep is like. If she is on screens until the early hours and not sleeping much, that will clearly exacerbate her behaviour.

As I said upthread, install a screen time option and limit her to two hours a day (maximum) on weekdays and maybe a bit more on weekends (although maybe start with 2 and let her earn two back). Vitally, take the screen at night and put it on charge in a different room.

Make her pay for what she has stolen with chores. Again, these don’t need to be huge or horrible, but they need to exist. Laying the table, helping you cook and clean come to mind. That way they also provide a calm place for you to bond and discuss things,

I would also work with the school here. A good form teacher or pastoral head can be really useful. If they have a good relationship with your daughter and she respects them, a chat with them can make a big difference. Always tell her you are doing this. No need for secrets around it.

And of course, look for things to praise. When she does something good, praise her and explain why. Positive reinforcement really works well. Sometimes it takes a difficult while until this happens but, when it does, it can create a virtuous circle.

And a non negotiable bed time, especially on school nights,

We have been in your situation, OP. And even though the worst is over, I never let my eyes off the ball.
In a nutshell, DD was diagnosed with ADHD--Inattentive kind. She started stealing at home and it was addressed with all kinds of repercussions as some have suggested here. I can tell you that none will work. They may work short time but they won't in the long run.
Read up on ADDitude magazine about stealing and ADHD. The problem stems from lack of impulse control. So, consequences, no matter how severe, are not going to make a dent.
Practical advice from the trenches remove all temptation. I keep everything under lock and key. I know when she is in the kitchen and ask what she wants. I know where my child is all the time. This is exhausting and it also makes you look like the Stasi to the outside world but you just have to do that. Alternatively, you could consult a psychologist (online if your DH is opposed) and ask for solutions. I found research online and devoted hours to this topic especially when the stealing reached school. And it will if left unchecked.
The neurodiverse child always thinks they can get away with it despite having experience with consequences. It is not that they are forgetful although that is a common symptom of ADHD. It is just that the impulse is far greater.
Secondly, start looking for resources on how to teach her to curb her impulses--verbal or otherwise. Criticism of dinner means no dinner. That will not phase her on day 1-3 but come day 7, she will start regretting it. Then, go in for the kill. Go and speak to her in her private space (her room) and let her know that she is hurting you with her words. Tell her you love her and are always there for her but speaking cruel words has consequences. She might want to apologize but give her time. Hugs and kisses (if allowed) and repeat the process.
Warning: This won't be solved overnight. We are 4 years in with this behavior and there are huge improvements in stealing but you have to sleep with one eye open--literally.
Wish you the strength and fortitude as you go through this.