Am at a loss to how to deal with 13 yo stealing

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My dd2 is 13 and I have no clue how to deal with her. I have tried everything, reminding her, telling her off, explaining to her why its not right, all to no effect. Grounding is nothing because she rarely goes out with friends, and its impossible to remove her phone.

She is really rude, like insulting and hurling personal attacks at her 16yo sister and me. Every night when we have dinner I get called a useless cook and she criticises everything I cook and refuses to finish her food.

The thing that bothers us most is she has the habit of stealing from her sister and I. She uses dd1's perfume without permission and she messes with her stuff. I strongly suspect she has stolen my money before and she definitely steals my skin care and make up from my wardrobe. I have no clue how to deal with her

Although they did have borstals and corporal punishment in those days so obviously not all children behaved perfectly.

By calling the police, daughter might just walk right out.
Then what?

Social services would step in then. I would only say call the police if she is out of control violent and is damaging property. Then it would be appropriate.

You are the main parent at home, your daughter is clearly unhappy, some family/individual therapy is vital for everyone.
If your husband doesn't want to be involved, then that's his issue but you have to do what is best for you and your children. (Obviously recognise it's tricky if he's the earner.....)

It is not impossible to take her phone.

She could be bi-polar (at the risk of being shot down for a MN diagnosis) sounds similar behaviour to my DGC, were there any signs growing up that she tried to control situations and could mood change quite quickly OP? speak to CAMS.

There needs to be listening, an "in house" questions and answers, then flexibility from all sides.

Once social services step in, the child is gone for good.
You would never get your child back in a way that would show any improvement.

Sorry, I have zero time for social services.
Rotherham
Huddersfield
Rochdale
All failed social services.

That’s not true and is just playing on stereotypes. Yes social services let down the children in the scenarios you described but that doesn’t mean that they don’t also help lots of families. It’s not true that once social services get involved, you lose the child.

Anyway I didn’t say go to social services. You asked what will happen if the 13 yo just walks out. If she does leave home, she will have to go into care because children that age can’t live independently.

Flexibility etc is all well and good but if the DD gets violent or destructive that might need input from professionals and it’s not an environment that the 16 yo should be living in.

Maybe you're failed with that type of attitude.

Lots of comments with conflicting advice here, and I'm afraid I'm only adding to that! As I see it, there are two main problems here:

1. Your daughter very clearly has something else that's going on, but I unless she talks to you, you can't help with that.
2. She does not respect you, and the result is that you now feel unsure about disciplining her because you fear violent reprisals.

Take the phone. I know people will advise against that, and I'm sure they have sound reasons for doing so, but I'm going to share why I think you should take it anyway. First, when you do take it, you need to make sure she can't get it back. Buy one of those little kitty boxes with a lock, and keep the key around your neck. She must not be able to circumvent the disciplinary measure. When you take the phone, turn it off, and assure her (through the screaming and raging), that you have no desire to look at her conversations, and then don't. Respect that boundary. Keep it turned off in the box. So, why am I suggesting you take the phone? Well, because you don't know what the problem is, and you don't know it's not the phone, for a start. Addiction seems likely, but there are also so many variables here. My daughter was being horrendously bullied online, which I didn't learn until I took the phone. Then she broke down. Then we could take action. Then she communicated with me again. If you want to be a really supportive mum, put your phone in the box with it. 'We're gonna do this together, kiddo, and find our way back to each other.' Before you do all this, you need to tell her that if she is violent with you, you will call the police. And you must abide by that. Yes, she is your daughter, and you want to protect her from all the bad stuff in the world, but sometimes the call is coming from inside the house. You cannot allow her to grow up thinking her violence will be accommodated. She has to see that there are real world consequences, not empty threats, that follow her behaviour. And please, for the love of cheese, ignore your husband and get the kid some counselling. She is violent. You are afraid to put down boundaries in your own home. This is not a little problem that's going away on its own. This is a serious behavioural issue and she needs help. You all do. I know it's hard, but you need to think about your other child here, too. She can't see her sister behaving like this and know there are never consequences for her behaviour. She will begin to feel as though she doesn't matter at all. And steadily she will begin to expect less and less for herself, knowing that her sister will always be the priority. Mustn't upset her, mustn't make her angry. I can already imagine the million ways that manifests in your home. She has been allowed to walk all over you, which is why this is so hard now, but if you take back control now, she will understand that there are limits to how much you will tolerate her bad behaviour.

Lots of passionate debate but no OP for days.

Tumbleweed…..

She needs counselling
There is more than meets the eye
I suspect she is getting bullied or has gone through some sort of abuse (e.g sexual, mental) and is acting out.
You are her safe space and she is taking it out on you.
She needs real help.
Someone has treated her badly and she is taking it out on you.

It sounds like you are a little afraid to put consequences in place because you think she will kick off and I get it, but that’s always going to limit the your ability to teach her that her actions have consequences. Let her know it’s fine to borrow from you or her sister (with her sisters agreement of course) if she asks first, and only if it’s something she doesn’t have herself or has run out of. Warn her that if she takes anything of yours or her sisters without asking again the consequence will be a deduction from her pocket money. That’s more of a natural, logical consequence than taking her phone.
You also have to pick your battles. Moaning you are a useless cook is rude but can be ignored as she is only trying to get a rise. Completely ignore her, but don’t offer to make her anything else. You have to decide what you are willing to ignore and put down to teenage thoughtlessness, hormones and self centeredness, and what you need to deal with like stealing, lying or hurting others.
Give a warning first.- ‘if you continue with X behaviour you will be grounded for tonight’.
‘If I find you taking my skincare again without asking I will have to take it out of your pocket money. If there is stuff you need, ask me and we’ll discuss it’.
You may need to take the phone, but I’d save that for more serious misdemeanours or if the above strategies don’t work. Don’t be worried about doing it. You probably bought the phone and no doubt you pay the bill/phone credit/wifi as well. If she kicks off she kicks off and she will need to pay for any damage.
Also, be as positive as you can when she does behave well, try to have a sense of humour over the small things and see if you can spend more individual time with her too.

You don’t think she might be, you know, spending her time parenting and dealing with very difficult teen rather than getting into debates about it on mumsnet……🤷‍♀️

I'm sorry are you scared of your 13 year old child? Take that bloody phone off her and if you physically can't, take the charger. She kicks off and you can't control her, call the police out. Sounds like she'll be well known to them in a few years anyway so she might as well get used to being arrested.

You need to lay down the law and discipline her while you still have the influence over her. Otherwise she's going to end up with a criminal record before shes 16. Yes they're gobby little shites at that age but that behaviour is beyond the pale. Mine can be fucking rude when she wants to be but she wouldn't dare attack me physically. She knows where the line is.

To me, this behaviour is a cry for help. I started acting out in a similar way at a similar age (or a bit younger actually). I had been sexually abused by a family member a year or so before that but couldn't tell anyone about it. Stealing is a classic attention-seeking behaviour and requires...attention. The anger is also classic imo and is directed at you because you are the person she is looking to for help but so far you haven't. She probably doesn't know how to ask for the help she needs. Be glad her pain is directed outwards at the moment, as things will become altogether more self-destructive if it turns inwards. I second the suggestion of counselling/therapy as a starting point.

This whole "typical teenager behavious, so everything they do is to be expected" is a modern fallacy. In other countries girls are married at 12 or 13 and boys are expected to work. This girl has issues. It's not typical, or ok, to behave like this or take your family's stuff without asking. She sounds out of control.

Every time someone give you advice you have an excuse.

You CAN take her phone and you CAN put a lock on your dd1s bedroom. You're the parent here yet your allowing your younger daughter to run the house, even when it's clearly effecting your older child.

Also if your husband is not there for 3/4 of the year why are you not the decision maker???

Get the youngest Into therapy and learn how to stand up to her and parent her. Your not doing her any favours. She needs to learn consequences now before she becomes an adult.

I think this is case of you have a parenting problem and not a child problem.

@applebananagraphs you do realize that you can’t hope this problem away, your DD is not going to wake up on morning and say ‘right, well I’ve been behaving poorly today is the day I’ll stop’.

I think you need to start by admitting to yourself that you are part of the problem.

You’ve had some excellent advice that you have already dismissed as impractical or hard. What advice would you accept as practical or easy?

Oh.. and I think the ‘stealing’ that you describe is pretty normal between siblings and family. The snarkiness at dinner is over the top but at 13 she’s capable of deciding if she wants to finish dinner. But the punching things and destroying things is not typical.

I'm a therapist :) and I know your dh is opposed to counselling but I can promise you your dd sounds like many troubled teens we see.

Have you ever said no to her before? If "she has everything" it sounds as though you've indulged her for her whole life and she's always been able to get everything she may possibly want... And now she's grown up with a huge sense of entitlement?

That's when I would call the police. Make her face consequences.

Sorry, I honestly don't have time to read the many many responses but the "impossible to remove phone" jumped out. I'm fairly sure there will already be many comments telling you to man up and that its not impossible, you are the parent etc so I have a different point: I have always managed to avoid the taking of the phone battle by using family link. I'm sure other apps exist too. It allows me to turn their phone "off" (actually lock everything except calls, for safety) in an instant, no matter where it is. It also allows me to set exactly when the phone will be on or off on a weekly schedule. Eg going off earlier on school nights. The turning it off instantly option is useful as I can calmly say, When you have done (whatever - tidy room, eaten tea etc) .... then I'll turn your phone back on. Then do it and dont engage. They can also be told, again calmly, that it's not acceptable for anyone to be spoken to disrespectfully and to help her to relearn this, you will from now on be turning the phone off for X minutes every time it happens.

Just trying to help. I realise I might be the twentieth person to suggest this, your thread looks long! I'm currently on my 5th 14yo, for context. I'm NOT saying I'm any good! But I like this app. (Also, God forgive me, when they get to the age where the app doesn't let the parent do these things any more, I adjust their DOB by one year.) Ha ha. But only until the end of compulsory education ie Y11.

If I had to take a guess at why she is stealing, my guess would be that, most likely unconsciously, she is trying to get attention. There could be a million reasons why she feels like she isn't getting enough attention, or the right kind of attention. There could be problems at school, online, with her sister, with a neighbour, that she needs help with, but she doesn't know how to talk about them.

However, it sounds to me like you are at a point where you would struggle to guess, because your relationship with her has become difficult, and the communcation isn't open. When my son does something that on the surface makes no sense, usually with a few questions I can fathom out why, even if he can't, but this is because I know so much about what he thinks and feels (sometimes more than I want to!). Others can often have no idea of what's going on in his head because he will present differently, and struggles to communicate clearly, but I am well-versed at making sense of him. I can only do this though because we've got that kind of relationship (and I'm not making any judgement here about you or any other parent having a hard time with it - every child and parent are different and none of them come with a manual, and we've had our own journey which I don't want to share but has necessitated me being more aware of him than I otherwise would have been).

I would suggest trying to write a letter to her that you can leave in her room for her to read when she's ready. Essentially, let her know that you've noticed she doesn't seem happy (because no happy, content person is stealing, are they? But don't actually mention the stealing, because this isn't about her behaviour, this is about her feelings) and you are worried about her, because you're her mum and you want her to feel good. Ask her if she can share what she's having difficulties with at the moment. Make it as non-judgemental as you can whilst not sounding like a script, and let her know she can come and talk to you or she could write you a reply. You might get nothing back, but at the very least you are telling her that you love her and care about her and you want to help. That in itself is likely to help.