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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Am at a loss to how to deal with 13 yo stealing

232 replies

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 06:22

My dd2 is 13 and I have no clue how to deal with her. I have tried everything, reminding her, telling her off, explaining to her why its not right, all to no effect. Grounding is nothing because she rarely goes out with friends, and its impossible to remove her phone.

She is really rude, like insulting and hurling personal attacks at her 16yo sister and me. Every night when we have dinner I get called a useless cook and she criticises everything I cook and refuses to finish her food.

The thing that bothers us most is she has the habit of stealing from her sister and I. She uses dd1's perfume without permission and she messes with her stuff. I strongly suspect she has stolen my money before and she definitely steals my skin care and make up from my wardrobe. I have no clue how to deal with her

OP posts:
Newbutoldfather · 17/09/2024 11:12

@Ivehearditbothways ,

‘It might be hard but parenting is hard sometimes. You still need to do it.’

This!

I taught for 10 years as a second career.

90% of the time, when a child is struggling to learn or with behaviour, it is explained when you see the parents at parents’ evening. The other 10% is probably undiagnosed SEN or just some children being hard to parent.

And these types of threads are really interesting from that perspective, because so many parents think a lack of boundaries is kindness and really want to be their teen’s best friend.

The happiest and most successful pupils I have taught had bedtimes, weren’t allowed to sleep in all day, even at the weekends (as that ruins decent sleep in the week) and had strict limits on screen times. They had kind but firm parents and you could see the mutual respect when you saw them together with their parents.

(As I said above, it is not a 100% correlation, as some teens are just young adults from 13 and others are hard to manage whatever you do, but the correlation is very strong).

DadJoke · 17/09/2024 11:15

shill4nuttn · 17/09/2024 11:10

I disagree. Our DD's teachers tell us she is a model student. In fact, they wouldn't even know she had ADHD unless we told them. But when DD is home--it's a whole another story. She admitted to her psychologist that she keeps her feelings pent up till she can get home and unleash on her family. Her doctor explained that she does that to us because she knows we will tolerate it and will love her no matter what. We are her safe space.

You are wiser and more experienced than me.

My son was horrid at home and fine with all other adults, now he is fine with all adults. I was projecting.

Sassybooklover · 17/09/2024 11:22

All schools these days have Pastoral Care. Make an appointment with the designated person at your daughter's school. They are not just there for school related matters. Be honest and frank with them. You need to find out from the school if there are issues too. Pastoral Care can signpost you to various agencies to help. If your husband is away 9 months of the year, leaving you to cope, to be honest, what he thinks is irrelevant. He doesn't have to deal with her behaviour on a daily basis. I agree with many others posters, there is something more going on with your daughter, than just 'normal teenage' behaviour. Children don't usually act out for no reason at all. Your relationship with your daughter is fragile, and her relationship with her Dad is virtually non-existent due to him being away more than he's home. Do you spend time with your daughter's individually as well as together? You need to build your relationship back up with her and a professional would help give you the tools to do that. Not saying it's going to be an easy road, but you need to seek professional help for her.

Ivehearditbothways · 17/09/2024 11:26

@shill4nuttn

That’s more common with girls than boys though. Girls mask their behaviours. Boys don’t as much. Of course they can, it’s not universal but on the whole, boys will show it everywhere. Girls will mask at school.

Maria1979 · 17/09/2024 11:34

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 10:33

She isn't having problems at school except for me hearing from other parents that she can be mean sometimes. She isn't like this with other adults, just me and sometimes dh when he is around.

So you're a single parent in reality. Well, you can make the decision to call social services and ask for help. Regular visits from an experienced social worker who talks to all of you might be just what you need. If things escalate I would call 911 and have her taken in to child psychiatric ward. I don't want to scare you but this reminds me of something I have experienced as a social worker and it's important to get help asap.

sunseaandsoundingoff · 17/09/2024 11:45

Newbutoldfather · 17/09/2024 11:12

@Ivehearditbothways ,

‘It might be hard but parenting is hard sometimes. You still need to do it.’

This!

I taught for 10 years as a second career.

90% of the time, when a child is struggling to learn or with behaviour, it is explained when you see the parents at parents’ evening. The other 10% is probably undiagnosed SEN or just some children being hard to parent.

And these types of threads are really interesting from that perspective, because so many parents think a lack of boundaries is kindness and really want to be their teen’s best friend.

The happiest and most successful pupils I have taught had bedtimes, weren’t allowed to sleep in all day, even at the weekends (as that ruins decent sleep in the week) and had strict limits on screen times. They had kind but firm parents and you could see the mutual respect when you saw them together with their parents.

(As I said above, it is not a 100% correlation, as some teens are just young adults from 13 and others are hard to manage whatever you do, but the correlation is very strong).

teenagers literally need more sleep than all other age groups, it doesn't ruin their sleep in the week.

LAMPS1 · 17/09/2024 11:49

OP, from the little you have said about your marriage, it could be suggested you may be a quite passive person. If your husband is absent from you all for 9 months of the year and you are entirely dependent on him for money and family decision making, eg he doesn’t like the counselling idea, then you are in a pretty much impossible position.
He isn’t there to know what’s going on and yet you abide by his decisions and rely on his provision. Are you prevented from parenting as you would wish to at all ?
Could this be connected to why things are going wrong for DD2. ?

Your daughter doesn’t appear to have an effective authority figure in the home. She is easily able to say ‘I don’t care’ because may be to her, her own father appears not to care and she gets away with everything so easily with her mum and older sister.
That isn’t a good feeling for her at all, poor girl, and I wonder if it comes from not feeling the safety and security of firm and confident guidance / boundaries where they are needed now, - and when they were needed in earlier childhood.

Is DD1 able to assert herself strongly at all?
Does she not give her younger sister a massive row when she realises her stuff has been stolen and messed with and does she not put her own strategies in place to protect her stuff?

Is it possible that DD2 is learning to assert herself (good for her) but in the wrong way because she hasn’t had assertiveness demonstrated for her in the family. She is floundering about, trying to find her way. She needs lots of examples by way of family debate and discussion as well as by way of role-modelling of family values.

It appears that you are a single mum for most of the year yet unable to parent effectively because you are beholden to an absent husband who does can do little proper and active, face to face parenting.
Could it be you are sometimes waiting for him to make decisions or waiting for him come home and sort things out and for things to get back to normal? Meanwhile, ‘normal’ never really happens and problems are left to solve themselves. Is this any where near the situation OP and is it unsatisfactory to you in any way?
I see you have now further commented that you are happy with him and the situation so may I have the wrong end of the stick entirely. But I think it’s still worth thinking about.

I kindly suggest that you could have a real heart to heart with your two Dds where you could all speak your true feelings in turn. You first. Take the lead with confidence and be really honest. You could explain exactly how you feel and how and why you are struggling. Acknowledge the unusual marriage arrangement openly and let your girls see that although it is far from ideal for any of you in some respects, you will still protect your own self respect, as well as theirs, by not accepting any more abuse within the home, eg verbal abuse and allowing stealing. And they should both do the same. Talk about it a lot without pointing the finger all the time at DD2.
Let the girls talk and agree that you all need to stand together and support each other.

I do think you need to get to the root of what is going wrong for DD2 rather than by just treating the symptoms. I feel for you doing it largely on your own. Good luck!

BettyBardMacDonald · 17/09/2024 11:54

Why are you a SAHM with teens?

Shut down the phone account, she can keep the useless device. Do it now.

Her brain is being adversely affected by this addiction. If it was a booze addiction would you keep supplying it??

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 12:19

LAMPS1 · 17/09/2024 11:49

OP, from the little you have said about your marriage, it could be suggested you may be a quite passive person. If your husband is absent from you all for 9 months of the year and you are entirely dependent on him for money and family decision making, eg he doesn’t like the counselling idea, then you are in a pretty much impossible position.
He isn’t there to know what’s going on and yet you abide by his decisions and rely on his provision. Are you prevented from parenting as you would wish to at all ?
Could this be connected to why things are going wrong for DD2. ?

Your daughter doesn’t appear to have an effective authority figure in the home. She is easily able to say ‘I don’t care’ because may be to her, her own father appears not to care and she gets away with everything so easily with her mum and older sister.
That isn’t a good feeling for her at all, poor girl, and I wonder if it comes from not feeling the safety and security of firm and confident guidance / boundaries where they are needed now, - and when they were needed in earlier childhood.

Is DD1 able to assert herself strongly at all?
Does she not give her younger sister a massive row when she realises her stuff has been stolen and messed with and does she not put her own strategies in place to protect her stuff?

Is it possible that DD2 is learning to assert herself (good for her) but in the wrong way because she hasn’t had assertiveness demonstrated for her in the family. She is floundering about, trying to find her way. She needs lots of examples by way of family debate and discussion as well as by way of role-modelling of family values.

It appears that you are a single mum for most of the year yet unable to parent effectively because you are beholden to an absent husband who does can do little proper and active, face to face parenting.
Could it be you are sometimes waiting for him to make decisions or waiting for him come home and sort things out and for things to get back to normal? Meanwhile, ‘normal’ never really happens and problems are left to solve themselves. Is this any where near the situation OP and is it unsatisfactory to you in any way?
I see you have now further commented that you are happy with him and the situation so may I have the wrong end of the stick entirely. But I think it’s still worth thinking about.

I kindly suggest that you could have a real heart to heart with your two Dds where you could all speak your true feelings in turn. You first. Take the lead with confidence and be really honest. You could explain exactly how you feel and how and why you are struggling. Acknowledge the unusual marriage arrangement openly and let your girls see that although it is far from ideal for any of you in some respects, you will still protect your own self respect, as well as theirs, by not accepting any more abuse within the home, eg verbal abuse and allowing stealing. And they should both do the same. Talk about it a lot without pointing the finger all the time at DD2.
Let the girls talk and agree that you all need to stand together and support each other.

I do think you need to get to the root of what is going wrong for DD2 rather than by just treating the symptoms. I feel for you doing it largely on your own. Good luck!

dd1 is scared of dd2 so she would avoid any conflict with her sister if possible. I have been helping her with strategies with protecting her stuff (like marking lines on her perfumes with markers). It is not exactly though because I have no clue with dd2 anyways.

OP posts:
MurdoMunro · 17/09/2024 12:27

@applebananagraphs You might’ve missed my question earlier, does any of the advice given so far feel helpful to you? You have said again that you have no idea what to do but I can see a lot of advice here from gentle to punitive. Is none of it feeling like an avenue to explore?

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 12:38

MurdoMunro · 17/09/2024 12:27

@applebananagraphs You might’ve missed my question earlier, does any of the advice given so far feel helpful to you? You have said again that you have no idea what to do but I can see a lot of advice here from gentle to punitive. Is none of it feeling like an avenue to explore?

Sorry yes I miss your question earlier. Yes it is helpful to an extent, but some of them might be kind of impractical given our situation. The gentle ones I have tried to some extent before and doesn't work, and the punitive ones leads to backlash which negatively affects both dd1 and I.

OP posts:
Newbutoldfather · 17/09/2024 12:52

@applebananagraphs ,

’The gentle ones I have tried to some extent before and doesn't work, and the punitive ones leads to backlash which negatively affects both dd1 and I.’

But you have to put up with a little short term backlash before she adjusts to the new routines. It will be so much easier long term.

So you take her phone (or control it using an app) and the more she kicks off, the more screen time she loses, and the more extra chores she gets. And, if she refuses to do the chores, her phone gets replaced with a ‘dumb’ phone until she realises that she cannot win by misbehaving.

At the moment SHE is parenting YOU, but not in a good way! If you take her phone, it is you getting the consequence, so modifying your behaviour to give her unlimited phone time.

Can’t you see this is very destructive?

LaughingElderberry · 17/09/2024 13:01

This doesn't make sense.

Your DD1 is scared of your DD2 and you don't know how to get your DD2 to stop stealing things, so your answer is to help your DD1 mark lines on her perfumes - why? So that it's extra obvious when her sister has helped herself?

You are happy with your H and there is no tension, but you don't want to make him mad by getting your DD2 into counselling. If there's no tension and you're happy then why aren't you pushing for the best interests of your child, especially given that he's not her father?

Your DD2 needs counselling and boundaries. Your DD1 needs a lock on her bedroom door (you can have a spare key, or a digi-lock which works on a code to ensure you are able to get in as well). Your H needs to be told that it's not up to him whether your children have counselling or not, as he is not their parent.

I feel most sorry for your DD1 in all of this - she's being terrorised in her own home and you are doing nothing to protect her.

ScrollingLeaves · 17/09/2024 13:05

You have set yourself and DD1 up as passive victims of DD2 whom you are perceiving as the black sheep and scape-goat. You put lines on perfume booties to catch her out for ‘stealing’ it but do nothing practical to stop her. You will not see to her phone or protect her. You will not get her and yourself counselling - maybe your GP could get it for you free.

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 13:09

LaughingElderberry · 17/09/2024 13:01

This doesn't make sense.

Your DD1 is scared of your DD2 and you don't know how to get your DD2 to stop stealing things, so your answer is to help your DD1 mark lines on her perfumes - why? So that it's extra obvious when her sister has helped herself?

You are happy with your H and there is no tension, but you don't want to make him mad by getting your DD2 into counselling. If there's no tension and you're happy then why aren't you pushing for the best interests of your child, especially given that he's not her father?

Your DD2 needs counselling and boundaries. Your DD1 needs a lock on her bedroom door (you can have a spare key, or a digi-lock which works on a code to ensure you are able to get in as well). Your H needs to be told that it's not up to him whether your children have counselling or not, as he is not their parent.

I feel most sorry for your DD1 in all of this - she's being terrorised in her own home and you are doing nothing to protect her.

dh is the father of both dds, and the lines are to convey to dd2 that dd1 is aware that she has been using her perfume. Also, dd2 puts away her phone every night so sleep isn't a problem.

OP posts:
sunsetsandboardwalks · 17/09/2024 13:10

You are happy with your H and there is no tension, but you don't want to make him mad by getting your DD2 into counselling. If there's no tension and you're happy then why aren't you pushing for the best interests of your child, especially given that he's not her father?

Exactly, it's all very passive and like OP has no choice but to be a victim who can't possibly change the situation.

I'd also question the logic of being a SAHM to two teenagers when your husband is controlling you can't even buy a lock for a door without worrying about "making him mad".

But then again I wouldn't be married to someone I didn't see for nine months of the year and who clearly didn't give a shit about my kids to begin with, so who am I to judge? lol.

TomatoSandwiches · 17/09/2024 13:14

Stealing at this age is still communication, there is something deeper going on than just being a " brat " <hate that> sometimes related to a control issue.

I would urge you to seek some therapy from a specialist in girls with neurodiversity, this is not typical behaviour and she needs help first to determine the why over automatic punishment.

You won't get anywhere until you understand why she is doing this.

PinkyFlamingo · 17/09/2024 13:17

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 06:26

She would scream, punch the walls, and would cause destruction to my property and it would end in physical fight

Well in that case you phone the Police

LaughingElderberry · 17/09/2024 13:18

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 13:09

dh is the father of both dds, and the lines are to convey to dd2 that dd1 is aware that she has been using her perfume. Also, dd2 puts away her phone every night so sleep isn't a problem.

Why on earth do you think lines on a perfume bottle are going to make any difference, to your 13 y/o who screams and punches things when she doesn't get her own way?

You could instead have a think about the effect on your DD1 of seeing those lines and the levels of perfume in the bottles dropping over time. It will be a reminder of the fact that she can't have anything of her own without it being taken by her sister, and that no adult is stepping in to stop this. That her sister gets to behave as badly as she wants, and if it impacts DD1 then she just has to put up with it.

At age 16 I'd be surprised if she weren't counting the days and praying to get into Uni so that she could move out and finally have a private space of her own.

Again, your DD2 needs counselling and you need to put a lock on your DD1's door. I'll revise my earlier point about parental responsibility and amend that to say that you need to tell your H that if he's away for 9 months of the year then he's not getting the brunt of this, so she needs counselling.

PinkyFlamingo · 17/09/2024 13:27

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 07:04

Finance is the problem here as I am a stay at home mum and I don't want to make dh mad as he provides for us by going to counselling or calling the police, and it also costs money to install lock. I did help dd1 hide her perfumes though

And you wonder why your DD is acting out when she's living in a household where Mum is scared of doing stuff in case it "upsets" Dad?

sunsetsandboardwalks · 17/09/2024 13:29

TomatoSandwiches · 17/09/2024 13:14

Stealing at this age is still communication, there is something deeper going on than just being a " brat " <hate that> sometimes related to a control issue.

I would urge you to seek some therapy from a specialist in girls with neurodiversity, this is not typical behaviour and she needs help first to determine the why over automatic punishment.

You won't get anywhere until you understand why she is doing this.

I'm not sure you need a professional to tell you that it's because her dad is absent and can't be bothered with her, and her mum is far too passive to even take a 13yo's phone off her.

Pogggle · 17/09/2024 13:32

Gimmeabreak2025 · 17/09/2024 06:24

To be honest she sounds very unhappy can you look into counselling for her.

I agree with this. I used to do the same when I was around the same age, except it escalated to stealing from shops too. I felt awful every time but I didn't know I had undiagnosed ADHD and it was an impulse behaviour that gave me a dopamine hit and also was a cry for attention. My parents never dealt with it but I wish they'd taken it seriously and tried to get help at the time. I was very lucky I never got in trouble with the police

LAMPS1 · 17/09/2024 13:49

dd1 is scared of dd2 so she would avoid any conflict with her sister if possible. I have been helping her with strategies with protecting her stuff (like marking lines on her perfumes with markers). It is not exactly though because I have no clue with dd2 anyways.

Thanks for responding OP.

You say you are happy with DH and there is no tension between you. Is there no tension between you both as long as you do what he says and take his wishes and preferences into account ?

May I please ask the question again ….. Do you wish you could parent differently?
Or, to put it another way, - Would you parent differently if you didn’t have to take his wishes/preferences/directives into account or would you parent exactly the same regardless?

Gimmeabreak2025 · 17/09/2024 13:52

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 06:25

do you mind explaining more to me? She has everything and hasn't expressed anything like that

She’s angry, isolating herself from her family and stealing, does she seem happy - just because you don’t see why she should be unhappy doesn’t mean she’s not, would a happy person act this way?

applebananagraphs · 17/09/2024 14:07

LAMPS1 · 17/09/2024 13:49

dd1 is scared of dd2 so she would avoid any conflict with her sister if possible. I have been helping her with strategies with protecting her stuff (like marking lines on her perfumes with markers). It is not exactly though because I have no clue with dd2 anyways.

Thanks for responding OP.

You say you are happy with DH and there is no tension between you. Is there no tension between you both as long as you do what he says and take his wishes and preferences into account ?

May I please ask the question again ….. Do you wish you could parent differently?
Or, to put it another way, - Would you parent differently if you didn’t have to take his wishes/preferences/directives into account or would you parent exactly the same regardless?

Sorry did I miss your question--- no I wouldn't parent differently even if dh isn't in the picture as I don't have better options in mind that is also practical. Of course it would be ideal if she was open to sorting out the issues or is responsive to discipline.

As for the tension, it is more like we nearly always share the same preference/ one of us don't have a preference.

OP posts: