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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Accusing women of being men

156 replies

poppyzbrite4 · 13/09/2024 08:47

Brigette Macron has just been awarded compensation after a rumour that she's a man went viral. Michelle Obama has also been accused of being a man as has Jacinda Ahern.

Why are famous women being accused of being men?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brigitte-macron-false-transgender-claims-france-b2611899.html

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 14:14

I actually think it is really important to stress that there is a significant difference in the situation facing Michelle Obama and the situation that has been experienced by the boxer, Khelif.

One, a female person who is being accused of being male based on no evidence at all.

One, a male person who has been tested to show that they do not have XX chromosomes. And before anyone starts to go down that path, no, chromosomes are not the only element considered when correctly categorising a human body as being male or female.

A female human is the one with the body formed around the production of large gametes regardless of whether that body produces those large gametes or not. This is partly indicated by chromosomes. However, no female human on earth has working testes. No female human on earth has had a body that has been virilised as a male body through production of testosterone from their testes.

There is not even any statements about Michelle Obama from any professional organisation that she is not female. The comparison is completely false and irrelevant.

poppyzbrite4 · 13/09/2024 14:17

SpiderGwen · 13/09/2024 14:11

@poppyzbrite4 - have you known any sensible people claim this rather than mad heads frothing on Twitter or American right wing podcasts? I must admit it’s only online lunatics I’ve heard spout such guff.

You’d think actually giving birth would be sufficient for claims about Obama or Williams in these circumstances, wouldn’t you?

This was taken so seriously that Macron won compensation! You'd think it could be shrugged off as lunacy but people believe it. Have you seen the Obama video? There's a video of her dancing and it looks like she's got a bulge. I don't know if it's been doctored or not, I assumed it was just the material of her trousers.

You’d think actually giving birth would be sufficient for claims about Obama or Williams in these circumstances, wouldn’t you?

There are even claims that some women haven't been pregnant. Both Beyonce and Megan Markle have been accused of faking pregnancies.

These people will claim that the Obamas adopted or had a surrogate.

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 14:24

Merkins · 13/09/2024 14:10

Have you got the medical report to hand? I wasn’t aware it had been published. You might want to note that believing what a number of medical specialists “believe” to be likely, is not evidence, but a racist, misogynistic assumption that tall, Arab women must really be men and that opinions are more important than fact.

Your accusations here of racism and misogyny is 'noted'.

If you are waiting for any organisation to publish the medical test outcomes, that will never happen unless either Khelif chooses to, or it is done as part of a witness statement in court.

Do you believe that any male person who has a body that has been virilised via processing the testosterone that their testes produce or have produced should be allowed to compete as a female in female sports categories?

Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 14:24

poppyzbrite4 · 13/09/2024 14:17

This was taken so seriously that Macron won compensation! You'd think it could be shrugged off as lunacy but people believe it. Have you seen the Obama video? There's a video of her dancing and it looks like she's got a bulge. I don't know if it's been doctored or not, I assumed it was just the material of her trousers.

You’d think actually giving birth would be sufficient for claims about Obama or Williams in these circumstances, wouldn’t you?

There are even claims that some women haven't been pregnant. Both Beyonce and Megan Markle have been accused of faking pregnancies.

These people will claim that the Obamas adopted or had a surrogate.

Based on nothing at all.

Tandora · 13/09/2024 14:26

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AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/09/2024 14:29

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And thank God Helle does.

Tandora · 13/09/2024 14:31

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/09/2024 14:29

And thank God Helle does.

Yeh speak for yourself there

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/09/2024 14:32

I just prefer it when posters back up what they say with evidence.

queenofguineapigs · 13/09/2024 14:39

They are ridiculous accusations. What's a man and what's a woman is very clear. We instinctively recognise them, which is why transwomen don't "pass" - transmen might do, on a rare occasion, at least if you don't look too closely or hear their voice.

So the idea that Obama is male is too stupid for words.

And it's also why I don't believe butch women are challenged in female loos. A butch woman is a woman.

queenofguineapigs · 13/09/2024 14:42

a racist, misogynistic assumption that tall, Arab women must really be men and that opinions are more important than fact

It's neither racist not misogynistic. It is quite the opposite.

If that boxer was indeed male, they stole a team place from a Moroccan woman.

And if they were male, they also stole a gold medal and a podium place from a woman, who might well have not been white.

Hope that clears that one up for you.

Tandora · 13/09/2024 14:57

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AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/09/2024 14:59

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😂😂 or biological reality and not based on fantasy and ideology no one has to adhere to if they don’t want to.

You’re entertaining that’s for sure.

Naunet · 13/09/2024 15:08

LimeFawn · 13/09/2024 13:08

What, like the Algerian boxer that bloody JK Rowling is obsessed with despite absolutely no credible medical evidence being made public to prove her allegations.

So it’s misogyny when it Michelle Obama but not when it’s an Algerian female boxer who doesn’t conform to female gender stereotypes.

There was a whole fucking thread on Mumsnet about it and how she must be a man - incredible hypocrisy as ever.

No credible evidence?! In what fucking world? He failed two independent tests. You’re making a ridiculous claim and frankly he’d be suing the IBA if what they had said was a lie,

lifeinthelastlane · 13/09/2024 15:12

Merkins · 13/09/2024 14:10

Have you got the medical report to hand? I wasn’t aware it had been published. You might want to note that believing what a number of medical specialists “believe” to be likely, is not evidence, but a racist, misogynistic assumption that tall, Arab women must really be men and that opinions are more important than fact.

It was Khelif's doctor who said this.
Nice try though.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 15:17

Oh. Did I miss the series of personal attacks then? Oh well. I am sure I have seen them aimed at myself or other posters before.

I am sure that those reading along will see the difference between a male who has a body that has been virilised by a male puberty and has failed sex testing and purely spurious accusations about Michelle Obama. And how those who want others to think that these are the same issues resort to personal attacks.

The emotionally manipulative tactics are always the same.

The two scenarios are not the same at all.

SpiderGwen · 13/09/2024 15:48

@poppyzbrite4 Well I’m glad she won, but I also think it’s mad that such absolute bobbins is taken seriously by anyone.

Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 15:53

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/09/2024 14:32

I just prefer it when posters back up what they say with evidence.

Don't be too hard on them.

It was academically qualified people such as some of the posters on this thread that throughout the Khelif discussions really made it clear that 'cis' was meaningless as a word in its use for describing women.

I mean, when you can claim that a male with a difference of sex development and a virilised body (from using testosterone produced from their very own testes) is a 'cis woman', you cannot miss the very fact that female people no longer have a word that they can use to describe their unique body type.

Because remember, we have been told under the word 'woman' there are 'cis women' and there are 'transwomen'.

And now, it is perfectly clear that neither of those subcategories of the word 'woman' is unique to female people. So, we really have to thank the posters who 'educated' us on that.

Because that along with the latest statements that being 'trans' doesn't require any gender dysphoria, it does mean that less and less people are inclined to use the language that some posters on this very thread have tried to shame others to use. Because, who feels the need to support someone else's philosophical belief when it demands you to misrepresent what you and science know is the truth?

I mean, I am all for looking at the evidence that any male person can become or is a 'female person' . Bring it on.

Accusing women of being men
Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 15:54

Do you think that she won because it was France? Would the case have been successful elsewhere?

Completelyneutralname · 13/09/2024 16:15

randomchap · 13/09/2024 11:08

But that's very different to being accused of actually being a man, like the politicians in the op

I guess that accusing someone of acting like a man has now progressed into making baseless accusations of being one

Yes. It’s just a different version of the same thing. If you are a strong, independent and successful woman, men, and women with internalised misogyny, can’t handle it.

poppyzbrite4 · 13/09/2024 16:25

SpiderGwen · 13/09/2024 15:48

@poppyzbrite4 Well I’m glad she won, but I also think it’s mad that such absolute bobbins is taken seriously by anyone.

I'm constantly shocked at what some people believe. There seems to be a complete lack of critical thinking.

OP posts:
poppyzbrite4 · 13/09/2024 16:27

Helleofabore · 13/09/2024 15:54

Do you think that she won because it was France? Would the case have been successful elsewhere?

I suspect she won because she has a lot of money.

OP posts:
Daltonbear1 · 13/09/2024 16:31

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 13/09/2024 13:36

I'm not going to get into a trans bunfight on this thread but that mindset is also the root of all those ridiculous transphobes swearing they can tell a trans woman from a cis woman just by looking at them.

People can tell the difference between a male and female, yes, just by looking at them. This has been the case since the beginning of time.

Absolute bull crap which is why some women are accused kf being men they are doing it on twitter hell they even thought Daniel Radcliffe pregnant girl friend was trans. That's women too. Why is it butch women not sure of any other term sorry, have been accused of being men somebin America I saw a video been screamed at by other women not yo use toilets but she was a woman so I call bull crap on people telling

Daltonbear1 · 13/09/2024 16:33

queenofguineapigs · 13/09/2024 14:39

They are ridiculous accusations. What's a man and what's a woman is very clear. We instinctively recognise them, which is why transwomen don't "pass" - transmen might do, on a rare occasion, at least if you don't look too closely or hear their voice.

So the idea that Obama is male is too stupid for words.

And it's also why I don't believe butch women are challenged in female loos. A butch woman is a woman.

Rubbish many trans women pass many after surgery do and I have seen videos with butch women being screamed at

Simonjt · 13/09/2024 16:37

Notgoodatpoetrybutgreatatlit · 13/09/2024 11:58

On a positive note, I'm a non gender conforming lesbian. I work in secondary schools, when I first started work in the 1990s I had remarks by kids about being a man. (Not very many and children all appropriately punished) Reading this thread made me realise kids havnt done that for years. Clearly younger generations mostly are more open minded. On the whole. Obviously stupid comes in all ages!

My cousin and her wife have this problem with adults, my cousin in particularly has been verbally abused on many occasions for using the changing room at her gym, she now changes in the accessible changing room to escape abuse.

Daltonbear1 · 13/09/2024 16:39

Simonjt · 13/09/2024 16:37

My cousin and her wife have this problem with adults, my cousin in particularly has been verbally abused on many occasions for using the changing room at her gym, she now changes in the accessible changing room to escape abuse.

Right so.all them.people saying people can tell no they cannot simples

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