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..To be mortified at the treatment of rape victims at the Edinburgh Rape Crisis Centre?

816 replies

TorghunKhan · 12/09/2024 16:22

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clynyky7kj9o

No women only spaces for 16 months. Basically women, RAPED women - were told they could not definitely see a woman to help them with such an awful crime, they might have to see a man in a dress, and if they objected they were to be 're eductaed' by the man in charge - a man who himself applied for, and got!! a job which was supposed to be only filled by a woman.

It's shameful, disgusting, but whats worse is how many people put up with it!! Who thought this was ok?! why did nobody do anything, or say anything FOR YEARS

Woman with head in her arms sitting on a bed

Edinburgh rape crisis centre failed to protect women-only spaces

The centre unfairly dismissed a worker who believed victims should know the sex of staff who deal with their case.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/clynyky7kj9o

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Brefugee · 14/09/2024 10:35

Now i got to vote again, i will be writing to my new Labour MP to ask about these things. I am particularly concerned with the treatment of the elderly, and my MP is shit hot on disability issues.

But i will be raising Gender ID too because it relates also to treatment of the elderly. I voted in the interests of my mum and this is part of it.

In essence i believe that people should be free to live their best lives, with the caveat that this is extended to all and their lives don't adversely affect others. That boils down to: victims should be able to express their requests for support services without anyone judging them for their choices. You do not get to impose your desire for validation on people who need that support.

334bu · 14/09/2024 12:28

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/sexual-abuse-survivors-edinburgh-rape-crisis-centre-trans-ideology-4780614

A sex abuse survivor' s reaction to the ERCC appalling treatment of women.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/09/2024 12:48

TheKeatingFive · 14/09/2024 10:23

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

I agree this is what Labour has been hoping for. We all need to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't go away. Although it's early days, I am hopeful that too much is out of the bag now to put it back in.

This debate is never going away until females have their single sex spaces back.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/09/2024 13:24

RareFatball
Rape can be committed F on F and M on M. F on M and M on F.

This is not accurate; rape is defined quite specifically as involving the use of a penis, and that cannot be done by anyone female. Only men can commit rape.

Women can, and some do, commit sexual assault, but not rape. Women can, and some do, support and assist men in the commission of rape. But they cannot do it themselves.

It is also irrelevant, because the thread is about a man who has been systematically denying female victims of male rape the support that they need in order to come to terms with their horrendous experience. Nobody has suggested that this man haas been the victim of rape himself.

TwistedWonder · 14/09/2024 13:30

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

Yep us pesky women just need to STFU, accept seeing pension display in our single sex spaces, stop complaining about sexual predators demanding to be called ‘she’ in court by their victims and know our place in the patriarchal society.

Look at the shit Rosie Duffield has had from within the Labour Party for daring to speak up about dense safeguarding.

But the TRA’s and their hand maidens need to realise the genie is out of the bottle now and more people are waking up and saying no to this emperors new clothes ideology BS.

We will not be silenced in compliance

334bu · 14/09/2024 14:09

Julie Bindel writing in Spectator
www.spectator.co.uk/article/how-trans-ideologues-corrupted-rape-crisis-centres/
Not sure if this has already been posted.

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/09/2024 15:01

x.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1834937956399780052?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

John Swinney says that women and girls must have the protection of women only spaces.

But John, if you're allowing males to identify as women then they become mixed sex spaces and females will not be protected.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 14/09/2024 15:04

GargoylesofBeelzebub · 14/09/2024 15:01

x.com/ginadavidsonlbc/status/1834937956399780052?s=46&t=AjtjSItRj-kgZwRzL-pdyQ

John Swinney says that women and girls must have the protection of women only spaces.

But John, if you're allowing males to identify as women then they become mixed sex spaces and females will not be protected.

Exactly!! This is why language is not important and why TRA focus on it so much

women must mean - and only mean - adult human female. It must not include any men in that definition. Any tiny millimetre given On this definition just opens the door up for any man to stroll in

TwistedWonder · 14/09/2024 15:43

TwistedWonder · 14/09/2024 13:30

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

Yep us pesky women just need to STFU, accept seeing pension display in our single sex spaces, stop complaining about sexual predators demanding to be called ‘she’ in court by their victims and know our place in the patriarchal society.

Look at the shit Rosie Duffield has had from within the Labour Party for daring to speak up about dense safeguarding.

But the TRA’s and their hand maidens need to realise the genie is out of the bottle now and more people are waking up and saying no to this emperors new clothes ideology BS.

We will not be silenced in compliance

Edited

Bloody predictive text!!

Penis in not pension
Female not dense

Merida46 · 14/09/2024 15:48

Mridhul Wahwa lied on his application form so he should never have been employed in the first place because the form stated explicitly that the positions was only open to females! He should have been dismissed instantly when the "mistake" was discovered.

AdeptScroller · 14/09/2024 15:52

People, mainly women but a few men also, have been saying stuff for years. They've highlighted these situations and were e gaslighted and called bigots - by others, the media, the government, and received death threats eg JK Rowling and 100s of other women.

FigRollsAlly · 14/09/2024 16:32

Bridget Phillipson is sick of this debate, is she? What a luxury it must be to feel so sure that women have no need to worry about their children being led down an irreversible path nor to worry that raped women will have their trauma intensified by the results of this ideology. Or is she just incapable of empathy?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2024 16:34

TheKeatingFive · 14/09/2024 10:23

Bridget Phillipson is apparently sick of this debate and had hoped these questions would go away.

I agree this is what Labour has been hoping for. We all need to do everything we can to make sure it doesn't go away. Although it's early days, I am hopeful that too much is out of the bag now to put it back in.

100%. Perhaps Bridget isn't up to the job. She can fuck off then.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2024 16:35

She's the kind of lightweight that Keegan was, from what I've seen.

IwantToRetire · 14/09/2024 17:16

Merida46 · 14/09/2024 15:48

Mridhul Wahwa lied on his application form so he should never have been employed in the first place because the form stated explicitly that the positions was only open to females! He should have been dismissed instantly when the "mistake" was discovered.

He didn't lie. The organisation accept self identity (which by the way the EA doesn't) which was the attitude created by funders, and the SNP.

Also he was a political figure at the time having worked at other women support services and attempted (cant remember what exactly) to get some political position. So everyone knew his background.

So this was / is about either a complete co-operation by society to the trans agenda, or a society where intimidation is so high no one dares speak up.

Dont forget Roz Adams did not object to the inclusion of TW at ERCC. Her complaint, and the subsequent bullying was because she believed a service user should be told the truth. ie that she might be offered support by a TW. And the ERCC decided this breach of the TW privacy was more important than ensuring a victim of rape got the support she wanted, not what they wanted to force on her.

RedToothBrush · 14/09/2024 17:49

IwantToRetire · 14/09/2024 17:16

He didn't lie. The organisation accept self identity (which by the way the EA doesn't) which was the attitude created by funders, and the SNP.

Also he was a political figure at the time having worked at other women support services and attempted (cant remember what exactly) to get some political position. So everyone knew his background.

So this was / is about either a complete co-operation by society to the trans agenda, or a society where intimidation is so high no one dares speak up.

Dont forget Roz Adams did not object to the inclusion of TW at ERCC. Her complaint, and the subsequent bullying was because she believed a service user should be told the truth. ie that she might be offered support by a TW. And the ERCC decided this breach of the TW privacy was more important than ensuring a victim of rape got the support she wanted, not what they wanted to force on her.

Edited

In theory transwomen aren't the problem in the sense of using the services.

The problem is concealment of sex in a vulnerable position like this.

I'm mindful that using deception to engage in sexual acts can be unlawful and there is a debate over loopholes in the law around this with calls to update the Sexual Offences Act 2023.

The CPS has some guidance around sex and deception on this subject.
https://www.cps.gov.uk/publication/deception-gender-proposed-revision-cps-legal-guidance-rape-and-serious-sexual-offences

If you read the article it's interesting. The following being the most relevant.

Evidential considerations
The Court of Appeal in R v Justine McNally [2013] EWCA Crim 1051 determined that “depending on the circumstances, deception as to gender can vitiate consent” [27]. In McNally, the court characterised the appellant’s actions as a deliberate deception [26], rather than a failure to disclose, confirming that active deception as to gender falls within the scope of s74 of the sexual Offences Act 2003.

Whether the complainant has been deceived will require very careful examination of the evidence and consideration of all the surrounding circumstances. Prosecutors should ensure that they have sufficient material from the police in order to make this determination.

The question of deception can be considered in three stages:

  1. Has there been active or deliberate deception by the suspect? If not, the deception will not fall within the scope of s74 of the Act and consent will not be vitiated. However, if there is a deliberate deception, consider the second question.
  2. Was the complainant deceived and therefore did not consent? If so, consider the third question.
  3. Did the suspect reasonably believe the complainant consented?

1: Has there been active or deliberate deception?
If a suspect genuinely perceives their gender identity to be different to their birth assigned sex or if their gender identity is in a state of flux and/or emerging, this may be evidence there was not a deliberate deception.
The following type of evidence may assist to establish how the suspect perceived their identity:

  • The steps the suspect has taken to live consistent with their gender identity.
  • The steps the suspect has taken to acquire a new legal or administrative gender recognition.
Possession of a GRC proves that an individual has been legally recognised in their affirmed gender and is strong evidence to show that the individual is living in their affirmed gender. However, a person’s gender identity or affirmed gender is not dependent upon them obtaining a GRC and the vast majority of trans people do not obtain a GRC: see above.

How the suspect perceived their gender at the time of the offence can be a complex issue. The following matters should be borne in mind:

Gender identity can be fluid and/or emergent for some persons, particularly young persons, who may explore the nature of their identity and/or sexuality.
A person whose gender identity isn’t the same as their sex assigned at birth may express their gender through their speech, dress, gestures, mannerisms etc, without regarding this as a fabrication, a performance or a deception.

Some trans people may not always be living in their true gender identity due to safety considerations.

A person who presents as a particular gender at the time of the alleged offence may subsequently revert to their sex assigned at birth when an allegation is made against them. Any apparent reversion may be for numerous reasons including, but not limited to, pressure to conform to social norms.

On the facts of the case in McNally, the ruling that deception as to gender can vitiate consent applies to situations where a person falsely purports to be of a different gender (McNally was a girl who presented herself as a boy, using a male avatar “Scott” online). Although the courts have not addressed the point, the ruling would appear to be capable of applying broadly to include, for instance, deception as to birth gender/assigned biological sex, gender history or trans status. There is no duty to disclose gender history, but in some circumstances suspects who are living in a new gender identity at the time of the alleged offending (as opposed to falsely purporting to be a different gender), including those who have obtained a GRC, may still be capable of actively deceiving a complainant as to such matters relating to their gender. For example, where a suspect falsely asserts that their gender identity is the same as their birth gender/assigned biological sex; or lies in response to questions about their gender history; or denies being a trans man or a trans woman.

Prosecutors should adopt an offender-centric approach when assessing whether there has been an active or deliberate deception. This involves looking closely at the actions of the suspect before, during and after the alleged assault (see chapter 3 for more details). By analysing the suspect’s behaviour in this way, a prosecutor should fully understand the circumstances and context of the incident.

An offender-centric approach should also allow the prosecutor to determine whether the suspect targeted, manipulated or exploited the complainant, or exerted control or coercion during their relationship. Where there is evidence of this nature, it is more likely that the suspect has actively or deliberately deceived the complainant.

2: Was the complainant deceived and therefore did not consent?
The rulings in McNally [25] and R (F) v DPP [2013] EWHC 945 (Admin) emphasise that “choice” is crucial to the issue of “consent” and “the evidence relating to ‘choice’ and the ‘freedom’ to make any particular choice must be approached in a broad common sense way”.

Prosecutors should consider the complainant’s particular characteristics and life experiences, and how these may have impacted on their relationship with the suspect and their understanding of the suspect’s gender. For instance, a complainant who is young, immature, vulnerable or inexperienced in sexual relationships may more easily be deceived, and therefore lack the choice or freedom to consent, especially where there is a disparity in age or maturity between the suspect and the complainant.

When assessing the complainant’s account, the following non-exhaustive list of questions may also assist prosecutors, depending on the circumstances of the case:

Has the complainant closed their eyes to the obvious or wilfully ignored aspects of the suspect’s gender? For instance, did the complainant have an opportunity to discover or confirm the gender of the suspect but chose not to avail themselves of the opportunity?

Is the amount and nature of the contact, including communications between the suspect and the complainant, consistent with the complainant not knowing the suspect’s gender and being deceived?
Is there any evidence that the complainant was exploring their own sexuality at the time of the alleged offending?

In addition to the issue of deception, prosecutors should consider whether there are any other factors that may affect the complainant’s capacity and freedom to consent, such as intoxication by alcohol or drugs.

3: Did the suspect reasonably believe that the complainant consented?
If a complainant is deceived and did not consent, it is crucial to consider whether the suspect reasonably believed in consent to sexual activity. Again, an offender-centric approach should be adopted, and the focus should be on the actions of the suspect before, during and after the alleged assault.

When addressing this question, the following considerations may assist prosecutors:

Where there has been an active or deliberate deception by the suspect, it is likely that the suspect did not reasonably believe that the complainant consented.

Where there is evidence of coercion, manipulation, or exploitation of the complainant, it is less likely that the suspect held a reasonable belief.

However, there may be very limited circumstances where, despite the suspect deceiving the complainant, the defendant reasonably believes the complainant consents to the activity. For instance, the suspect may believe that the complainant is initially deceived as to the suspect’s gender but, because of the long passage of time between the initial deception and the sexual activity, during which the suspect and complainant meet and interact on numerous occasions, by the time the sexual activity takes place the suspect reasonably believes that the deception no longer operates on the complainant.

In such scenarios, prosecutors should examine very carefully the facts and circumstances of the suspect’s claim that they believed the complainant consented and, given that there has been a deception, consider what steps the suspect has taken to satisfy themselves that the complainant consented.

Reflecting on this I think there is room to expand the law and to say that consent in certain areas MUST include full disclosure of sex. This should relate to all intimate examinations and all discussions relating to issues of an intimate or sexual nature within a professional capacity.

This would include medical settings and any kind of counselling. This then makes it patient centred and is a clear boundary.

There may also be scope in certain other areas too for legitimate purposes.

I think this is something that wise people in politics would be advised to have a good look at to put some clear water here that would be difficult to push back on in 'sensible circles' so to speak.

The thing I find particularly difficult from the above is the offender centric approach as to whether someone has made a deception about sex and it being somehow based on the perceptions of the accused about their sex and whether they'd told someone, when we have India Willoughby and Mridhul Wahwa levels of TWAW and what constitutes sex. This isn't about belief. It's about consent and a black and white line about sex.

McNally v R. [2013] EWCA Crim 1051 (27 June 2013)

https://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/cases/EWCA/Crim/2013/1051.html

RedToothBrush · 14/09/2024 17:51

My point being that certain circumstances mean that disclosure of sex is something that should be non negotiable and there should be full transparency.

That would cover whether a service is actually properly single sex or you might come across situations where that was not the case and it has to be up front and allow people to make informed choices about.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 14/09/2024 17:59

The offended rape counsellor at the centre of this case was a "non binary" woman, which a surprising number of these cases centre around. The survivor would have been able to have female support but she couldn't be told that.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/09/2024 18:02

Dont forget Roz Adams did not object to the inclusion of TW at ERCC. Her complaint, and the subsequent bullying was because she believed a service user should be told the truth. ie that she might be offered support by a TW. And the ERCC decided this breach of the TW privacy was more important than ensuring a victim of rape got the support she wanted

It wasn't even that. The service user was offered a counsellor who was a non-binary identifying woman with a non-female name, and Roz simply wanted to reassure her that she would be seeing an actual woman.

RedToothBrush · 14/09/2024 18:05

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/09/2024 18:02

Dont forget Roz Adams did not object to the inclusion of TW at ERCC. Her complaint, and the subsequent bullying was because she believed a service user should be told the truth. ie that she might be offered support by a TW. And the ERCC decided this breach of the TW privacy was more important than ensuring a victim of rape got the support she wanted

It wasn't even that. The service user was offered a counsellor who was a non-binary identifying woman with a non-female name, and Roz simply wanted to reassure her that she would be seeing an actual woman.

I think it's fair to a point but we are also expecting survivors to play the mental gymnastics of validating identities as male, which still might be wholly inappropriate in the context of a rape counselling session tbh. It places emotional labour onto service users at a time which it may be not fair to do that.

If we are talking about survivor centred care we really should be mindful of this.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 14/09/2024 18:12

I didn't mind a male HCP doing an ECG for me; it didn't worry me. But I feel that if someone might not like to have an ECG which involves being partly naked being done by a member of the opposite sex, they ought to be offered the option, (and indeed, as far as I remember I was on that occasion). I trusted the person involved to do his job professionally and not make me have to scream and hit him hard between the legs with a heavy walking stick... Not all women would share that trust.

What I very much mind is being lied to by someone pretending to be female when he clearly and obviously is not. If he isn't even sure which sex he is, how can I possibly trust his judgement about anything else? Will he in fact be capable of doing his job properly? That's the sort of doubt you really don't need when you are having a test whose results may be life-altering.

I think this feeling is relevant to that particular lie being told in any situation where a woman is vulnerable, even before the practicalities of previous trauma have to be considered. It's a matter of trust, or rather of a lack of trust.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 14/09/2024 18:14

It places emotional labour onto service users at a time which it may be not fair to do that.

Oh of course it's totally inapproriate in the the setting. My point was that Roz's offence wasn't even saying 'that woman's a man' - it was outing (actually, merely enquiring whether she could out) a woman as a woman.

TorghunKhan · 14/09/2024 20:33

Brefugee · 14/09/2024 10:35

Now i got to vote again, i will be writing to my new Labour MP to ask about these things. I am particularly concerned with the treatment of the elderly, and my MP is shit hot on disability issues.

But i will be raising Gender ID too because it relates also to treatment of the elderly. I voted in the interests of my mum and this is part of it.

In essence i believe that people should be free to live their best lives, with the caveat that this is extended to all and their lives don't adversely affect others. That boils down to: victims should be able to express their requests for support services without anyone judging them for their choices. You do not get to impose your desire for validation on people who need that support.

Wonderful.

viability like this is essential if we are to make any meaningful change anywhere. Writing to MPs, head teachers, governors, councillors - ANYKNE and making opinions known.

for 10-12 years only crazy trans rights activists have been viable and they have almost ruined the lives of so many women.

OP posts:
murasaki · 14/09/2024 23:23

We used to be kind. Until they tried to force us to #bekind.

We are over that, chaps.