Germany has *tightened its borders - *OP requested title tweak

[poppyzbrite4]

Is this the way to go?
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-put-temporary-controls-all-land-borders-source-says-2024-09-09/

Well there you go! I don't often reply as it gets a bit heated but this took me by surprise. That's quite a change in direction

Not that I mind. Aus will increasingly benefit from policy whilst other countries struggle

@inamarina

OP, aren’t you contradicting yourself here a bit:

No, I'm not contradicting myself. There's a reason why the EU distributes asylum seekers, it's so they ensure countries can cope. I think letting in nearly 2m people in 4 years, giving Germany the fifth highest population of refugees in the world wasn't sensible. Germany has continued to take in asylum seekers, including thousands of Ukrainians.

The UK took in very few before Brexit, and now the number is many thousands which is a drop in the ocean compared to Germany. Our percentage of asylum seekers is about 6% of our overall immigration.

You say it’s a very small percentage of immigration into a country, but then, who are all “these men” you’re talking about “many of whom were sniggering about gender equality”? Do you think they’re there on work visa? And a way to reduce their numbers would be investing in local work force?

I saw a documentary about the asylum seekers Merkel invited in and how they were settling in. The Germans provided integration courses to help with language and culture. The men were asked how they felt about equality and they were sniggering about the idea.

Why do you say very few prior to Brexit? 2002 was 84,132 which is comparatively high to UK numbers today

I'm not surprised that Germany is experiencing repercussions after letting all those men, from a vastly different culture, into Germany.

How may men from a 'vastly different culture' do you think they or we should accept?

As I take it you mean it's ok up to a certain point?

I fervently disapprove of mass male migration, while understanding why it happens that way. I would support female migration programmes, with concentrated language tuition and childcare help, because women are far more likely to want to be carers and do childcare roles (currently both expensive and very underpaid).

Not sure if the scheme of returning refugees to other countries always works in the EU either.
I read recently that most of the transfers within the EU actually fail.
According to the article below (German source), during the first half of 2024, 36,795 transfer applications were submitted by Germany and in 21,314 of those cases the EU countries in question agreed to take back refugees. However, only 3043 transfers actually took place.
In 2023, 74,622 applications were submitted by Germany and only 5053 transfers happened.
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland/article253191522/Solingen-Attentaeter-entzog-sich-offenbar-gezielt-Abschiebung.html

There's a reason why the EU distributes asylum seekers, it's so they ensure countries can cope.

Are the refugees evenly distributed though? As far as I know, Hungary for instance is hardly taking any.
Then there is also the question of where the refugees themselves want to go. If the majority aim for Germany, what will stop them?
The perpetrator from Solingen was supposed to be sent back to Bulgaria because that’s where he had entered the EU. On the day he was supposed to be deported, he simply absconded from his accommodation and stayed in Germany.

These stats are up to 2009 -hardly relevant today.

Why do you say very few prior to Brexit? 2002 was 84,132 which is comparatively high to UK numbers today

Asylum seeker applications peaked in 2002, then fell to a twenty year low point in 2010 - 17,916. Then it rose rapidly from Brexit to reach 81,130 in 2022 to this year which was approximately 100,000 by June.

How may men from a 'vastly different culture' do you think they or we should accept?

Not 2 million and counting.

The perpetrator from Solingen was supposed to be sent back to Bulgaria because that’s where he had entered the EU. On the day he was supposed to be deported, he simply absconded from his accommodation and stayed in Germany.

Wtf? He murdered three people, why wasn't he locked up? Or have we just stopped doing that now?

Sorry, just realised you meant prior to the attack. Depressing that I found it plausible though.

I can’t help wondering if France now being open to discussion with Starmer on dealing with the boatcrossings isn’t due to many immigrants landing up in ROI. They’re happy to send immigrants to us but are probably getting an ear bashing as these are now arriving in a fellow EU country.

It was still high pre Brexit, it falling after doesn't change that fact. In addition countries are seeing a large increase in numbers currently. It will get higher as factors put pressure on people.

Brexit is irrelevant at this point although that may change. There is no sharing of asylum seekers yet across the EU, but policy will be updated to change that fairly soon with an allocation or cost.

Idk how Germany can talk about refusing asylum seekers as in the BBC article below, and still adhere to international law. If they do get round the law then other countries could do the same and return everyone.

This means entry points such as Italy will be vastly overwhelmed, and find it difficult to cope.

The EU Pact on Migration and Asylum is the mechanism used to distribute asylum around member states.

Factors considered when relocating refugees include population, GNP, and the number of asylum applicants in the last five years. Countries with larger populations tend to receive more refugees.

Hungary is hardly a place asylum seekers want to go. They subject asylum seekers to appalling conditions in order to deter them. Hungary is barely a democracy.

Then there is also the question of where the refugees themselves want to go. If the majority aim for Germany, what will stop them?

According to the Dublin agreement, asylum seekers should make their application in the first EU country they enter. Accordingly, Germany can send them back.

The perpetrator from Solingen was supposed to be sent back to Bulgaria because that’s where he had entered the EU. On the day he was supposed to be deported, he simply absconded from his accommodation and stayed in Germany.

Then Germany should have detained him before deporting him.

This isn't correct regarding the Dublin agreement, see @inamarina post on numbers and the Pact will take time to implement. ie 2026

Following the adoption of the Pact on Migration and Asylum, a two-year transition period was set into motion to prepare for its entry into application.

During this period, the European Commission will be coordinating a common implementation plan for the EU, assessing possible gaps and necessary operational steps to turn the new rules on migration and asylum into a reality. Based on this plan, EU countries will have to develop national implementation plans by December 2024, outlining the necessary actions to ensure their readiness for the Pact’s entry into application, mid-2026.

I wonder whether Bulgaria would have actually taken him back?

It was still high pre Brexit, it falling after doesn't change that fact. In addition countries are seeing a large increase in numbers currently. It will get higher as factors put pressure on people.

The number of asylum seekers wasn't steady and didn't climb which it's doing now, post Brexit. As I said, it peaked in 2002 then fell and has climbed again. In June this year it was 100,000. Therefore it has risen post Brexit.

Brexit is irrelevant at this point although that may change. There is no sharing of asylum seekers yet across the EU, but policy will be updated to change that fairly soon with an allocation or cost.

Brexit is relevant because of people smuggling. Since we're no longer part of the EU, we can't send asylum seekers back, which smugglers are exploiting and small boats are increasing.

The Common European Asylum System (CEAS) is the mechanism for distribution of asylum seekers.

Apparently Bulgaria did say yes.
What I find interesting is that according to the article I quoted, the majority of EU countries do seem to be saying “yes” to taking back refugees, and yet those transfers often don’t happen. I wonder why? Do people avoid them by simply hiding, like that guy in Solingen?

No if this were the case Germany which did not have Brexit would not be struggling as it is.

As I said it will change in 2026 when allocation begins. But now Brexit is not a factor. If it was you would not see what you are in Germany.

Or ROI, Italy, Netherlands or many other EU countries. None of which have exited the EU.

Imo we are in a difficult position, I prefer to be in and do the allocation or do as Aus has and have stronger policy. This mid way ground being out, but in some organisations will make it increasingly hard for the UK.

Do you know how Germany can talk about returning all asylum seekers within international law?

Maybe politicians will get it together and the next GE can be a choice between allocation or Aus style

Because it'll get much harder without either

I know it is politically incorrect to suggest that not every EU recent entrant fails to enforce EU rules quite as forcefully as the original members would like, but common implementation plans? You are joking. Do you, heck, does anyone think that Bulgaria or Romania is going to accept back the burden of migrants? Their population is moving into the developed EU to work as fast as they can, and in time, they will return home to live in the houses they are sending money home to build. Good on them. If they also absorb some of western Europe's 1200 year journey to political freedom and take it home, then job done. Europe will be better and bigger.

No if this were the case Germany which did not have Brexit would not be struggling as it is.

You're conflating the UK with Germany. I'm talking about the rise in asylum seekers to the UK post Brexit due to small boats.

I'm not denying that asylum seekers are rising in Europe.

Do you know how Germany can talk about returning all asylum seekers within international law?

No because it's impossible. Germany has signed up to various international laws including the Refugee Convention and cannot return asylum seekers to places of persecution. All they can do is send them to a third country or break international law. The EU has a new policy of retaining asylum seekers in a third country outside the EU.

The EU has a new policy of retaining asylum seekers in a third country outside the EU.

So basically like the Rwanda plan?

Germany is now planning to process asylum seekers in Rwanda. It is a safe third country.

Germany is now planning to process asylum seekers in Rwanda. It is a safe third country.

Honest to God you couldn't make it up Maybe the UK government could sell the contract to Germany.

Your first part doesn't make sense. If you can see there is an overall rise in Europe there's no reason for it not to apply to the UK too. Brexit is not a factor, although it will be soon as the pact kicks in.

On the second I'm surprised the statement was made. Idk why it hasn't been picked up on more, but it does show the political strain atm for Germany. Possibly greater than the UK atm

Really?

And all the furore here. Bloody hell we do like to shoot ourselves in the foot electorally.