Identity Cards: yes or no?

[Papyrophile]

Gerard Darminin, French Home Secretary equivalent, has said that the UK is making itself a migrant target because we have no national officially issued ID card proving entitlement.

I, a very ordinary citizen, already have an NHS number issued at birth, and a National Insurance number sent to me at 16, neither of which has changed. I also have a passport number, due for renewal next year, a driver's license and a Government Gateway number for my occasional exchanges with officialdom.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity?

I think people are confusing "digital ID system" with "having ID cards."

The government can have a digital ID system without anyone carrying a card!

In fact, that is basically what is going to happen.

No, the government isn't planning to introduce ID cards (jamesomalley.co.uk)

That would depend what was included, an ID card wouldn't need to do all the sw driven things a large corp might need, its not going to be answering your phone and integrating emails etc etc.

There is no comparison to Horizon

A reasonable ID card shouldn't really need to contain any more info than a driving licence or passport, anti fraud can be built into its construction, we already have the basics to have a decent ID card.

If the Govt makes it compulsory, they cannot charge very much for it, they would have to off set initial costs against reductions in tax fraud etc.

If you want, but let's be clear it wouldn't change anything about the ID card discussion.

How would it reduce tax fraud?

The current system requires that you check someone's right to work before employing them, and obviously not everyone does that. What's the point in another thing to ignore?

This is my question too. If someone is ready to ignore current process for employing someone it will not change due to another format

It's worth remembering that BRP cards are not right to work documents. EVisas are issued by the Home Office and have simplified the process for employing workers who don't hold a British passport (or have the right to). It's a check that takes seconds. ID cards won't make bad employers anymore likely to do these checks than before.

The key word here is 'reasonable'. You think government and the civil service behave in a reasonable way? None of them ever have before, they way they approach IT acquisition is farcical, as descrIbed in an earlier post. (See also defence acquisitions - aircraft carriers with no aircraft) Dream on.

Governments want as much of our data in one place as they can. They are not going to spend millions on an ID system that doesn't do that.

In terms of illegal workers and migrants, how do people think introducing ID cards will solve this problem? People think it's some sort of magic wand.

What will help is massively speeding up the processing of asylum seekers, possibly offshore; promptly deporting those whose applications fail; ruthlessly targeting the criminal gangs who are employing much of the illegal workforce ( do we think the Albanian mafia are going to check ID?) in fact being a whole lot more ruthless about the whole process.

It will cost money, but so will a botched ID card system, which won't work.

BRPs are being phased out anyway.

He further remarked that demanding production of the card for its own sake tended “to turn law-abiding subjects into lawbreakers, which is a most undesirable state of affairs."
You know, I thought this about lockdown, especially with that blond angelic paragon of law and order telling us what to do, who had once remarked "if anyone asks me to produce an ID card, I will eat it in front of them". Up until lockdown, it was extremely rare for me to disobey any law; I'd even hesitate to cross at the red man. However, in 2020 when common sense was legislated out of existence, I took matters into my own hands.

There's always this mania to create new systems, when there are plenty of systems already in place, which are often not used the way they should be.

Yep, you can have a BRP and not have the right to work! Albeit not for much longer, though I don't trust that the E-visa is going to function like it's supposed to either. But yeah, ultimately, people use other people's genuine state issued IDs all the time, and creating another type of ID to be stolen and sold will change nothing about that.

So speaks someone who has never dealt with any kind of government related database.

People currently use excuses when they get caught out by employing those with no right to work in the UK. Excuses such as not being able to identify a forged passport or visa, not being able to read a foreign passport, claiming the person "looked like" the photo on the passport but in fact it was just someone with a resemblance, who was "borrowing" someone else's passport, etc.

A proper ID card would help stop all that.

Modern up to date Govt databases are actually pretty good these days. I.e. the way that now there's a central database of passports and driving licences, it's far easier to prove your identity for HMRC, which in turn is now integrated. We now have a central (ish) HMRC database that links the different taxes etc - we no longer have a completely separate system for NIC and a separate system for income tax etc - there are pretty good links/integrations in place now - not perfect, but getting there!

The problem in the past was legacy systems which arose from initially computerising old manual hand written systems, back in the day when integration was virtually impossible due to technical limitations. Computerising the manual systems worked to an extent in that it was better than lots of manual systems, but at that time, there was no thought to future integration.

That's how we got separate UTR tax reference numbers for individuals rather than using the NiNo, why people have a different NHS number instead of the NiNo. It's taken a lot of time and effort to get those integrated, mostly due to the sheer number of errors made in the initial paper based records going back in time, and difficulties in "matching" John Smith on the NiNo database with John Smith on the NHS number database due to, say, home address not being updated on one system when they moved. Lots of relatively "minor" issues like that which caused huge numbers of discrepancies and exception reports whenever any kind of integration was attempted.

To a large extent, most of the separate databases have either been "cleaned", i.e. discrepancies corrected, duplicates removed, etc., and electronic links created between them. Still not perfect by any means, but definitely getting there on generally on the right track these days.

Why does Germany still have their issue with unauthorised migrants and ID cards?

It think both Germany and the UK are the highest in Europe, so it hasn't changed their outcomes?

I was under the impression that there is no excuse (or defence in law) for the employer* ? Certainly for money laundering and selling alcohol the person caught has no defence. Which is why they are so anal about checks.

*Maybe more suited to legal matters 😀

The "policing" of employers checking identities is very lax and nothing like "random" shoppers re alcohol, etc. It's only the most serious cases that get to court. Minor cases don't get prosecuted (i.e. the "odd" employee rather than dozens of illegals!).

So an alternative to ID cards is to burn a few billion fivers for all the effect they'd have ?

It seems the whole concept is like fitting oars to a go kart.

I'm glad there is someone else on this thread who actually gets it! 😁

I got it first time around. It's depressing to have to re-tread the same arguments again.

I really CBA to find the exact details, but the whole 2006 fiasco had a hilarious sting in the tail in that once you had an ID card, you were rather stuck with it and had to use it for all sorts of official applications - your passport and driving licence no longer being fit for purpose. Which left the early adopters a little bit fucked until the law was repealed.

The poor minister who was chosen to plug the project had such a happy puppy vibe to them too. It was a shame, really. They are still in government - sadder and wiser and probably first to lead any moves against reviving the whole scheme.

https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/24/home_office_id_loss/

https://www.theregister.com/2009/11/16/manchester_id_cards/

and, since this is MN, here's the obligatory trans angle

https://www.theregister.com/2010/07/12/hillier_id_cards/
(Hillier appeals to transgender community to save ID cards)

Likewise.

I've just read an article about the US and how no legal action is taken against hospitals who refuse treatment to emergency cases - particularly women. Despite this being illegal to do.

If we had to have ID cards to prove we were eligible for healthcare can we use our imaginations even a little here and consider what the outcome would likely be.

It would be the end of free point of care healthcare.

That would make certain people more vulnerable.

Otherwise we'd just have a bunch of people who were getting health care but couldn't afford to pay for it anyway. So what would be the point of the ID care to protect NHS budgets?

This is what we are talking about condemning people to death. And not necessarily just foreigners. There will be cases of refused care because of of a cock up.

But yeah ID cards sound fucking great.

It's really the face eating leopard situation, isn't it ?

If anyone has Netflix, they could do worse than watch Ahir Shahs recent stand up special. It's a tour-de-force reflection on where we are as a society and where we came from and how we got here.

Im happy to pay for one.
What other people do isn't really my problem to solve, let them work it out.

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109 in 24 hours

shakes head

So how do you see it working?. Say you didn't have it with you one day and the police stopped you. Would you happy to be arrested or detained for not carrying it?