Identity Cards: yes or no?

[Papyrophile]

Gerard Darminin, French Home Secretary equivalent, has said that the UK is making itself a migrant target because we have no national officially issued ID card proving entitlement.

I, a very ordinary citizen, already have an NHS number issued at birth, and a National Insurance number sent to me at 16, neither of which has changed. I also have a passport number, due for renewal next year, a driver's license and a Government Gateway number for my occasional exchanges with officialdom.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity?

This.

It will just be another hugely expensive government IT fuck up.

So yes not necessarily about you if you already have state provided id, if we follow the French model.

And how does this differ from the current situation?

You mean the French model where they aren't mandatory?

That system.

Great you can pay for a pointless card then if you wish.

Because there are a lot of people who don’t have passports or driving licences

It is mandatory to have ID provided by the government in France

So what do you envisage happening with people who are in the UK legally as visitors? Because for what you're suggesting to work, either we give everyone who comes for a quick mini break an ID card. Or we don't and then we've created a class of people who have more rights than citizens in this regard and also drives a coach and horses through your idea that a person without a UK government ID is likely here illegally.

This is actually a pretty big deal, considering the size of our tourist sector. Millions of people visit the UK every year.

Countries with ID cards accept that visitors have a passport.

Same as in other countries - you are supposed to carry your passports with you. Or at least be able to go to your hotel or wherever and provide it.

Yes, but the presence of a passport from another country isn't proof that the holder currently has the legal right to be in the UK as a visitor. It doesn't show whether or not the person has overstayed, not when so many are able to enter without being stamped or needing a formal visitor visa in advance of travelling. Additional checks would be needed in order to see whether the person was legally in the UK, just like now.

That's important because @Summernightsinthe21stcentury talked about ID cards as having use in showing whether a person is here legally or not. Actually, unless the country gives one to every single visitor, they don't. It's yet another example of a supposed use that actually would require another process on top.

No the countries who use ID cards ask that tourists carry their passports or can provide if needed. There is no need to issue ID cards to tourists. I don’t know how many times and ways to say this 😂. They can also be asked to show their inbound outbound travel for the hard of understanding.

So a passport or a driving license is just fine then.

And if you have travelled from abroad you have a passport. Right?

Unless of course you end up in a situation like Windrush where you are legally here and can neither prove that nor get an ID card that's supposed to protect you... Oh shit bummer. Ship em back.

So border control can't manage to tell this by looking at the passport. Why bother checking passports on entry at all?!

I don't know if I like the idea of ALL my info being stored on one card if it did include passport no, driving licence no etc. Seems a bit risky to have everything stored about me on one device. I realise my phone carries a lot of info about me but it does have Face ID/passcode if lost.

Perhaps people would be less hard of understanding if you could actually explain how ID cards would be a tool to ensure migrants have the right to be in the UK, in a way that doesn't already exist.

The ones who are staying longer already get BRPs, though that system will end soon. But we still have illegal immigration, so another form of UK government issued ID isn't going to affect that. You appear to agree it would be stupid to give them to visitors, meaning we'd have to just use the tools we have now in relation to them. It also means you were wrong when you said that not having a UK passport, driving licence or ID card means it's likely you're here illegally.

Guys you obviously know more than me. I just had a bit of experience, I thought it may have been helpful. Especially for the folks that don’t have/ don’t want passports or driving licences

Those law abiding migrants with their law abiding traffickers.

Those people?

Just trying to clarify here.

I expect traffickers would all be fully respectful of the documentary process, yes. Certainly they never use ID falsely now, and nobody has ever been trafficked to a country with compulsory ID cards.

@Summernightsinthe21stcentury I do get why people might like the idea of a helpful ID card, it's just not going to do the things people want it to or really anything different to now.

I think entry to the UK should be restricted to 30 days only. Most countries outside Europe, including the UAE, Indonesia, Singapore where I've most recently travelled stamp your passport with date of entry and 'not valid for employment'.

Only 30 days for tourist visas. If you want to stay longer, then you apply for a different visa before you travel. Or your employer sorts a short term work permit, up to six months, and funds your healthcare while you are here.

I think the sell for most people is for the issue of undocumented migrants or illegal migration

If that isn't resolved but the cards cost a lot I can't see them being that wanted

What other things do they resolve?

It sounds like another very very very expensive IT project which was foisted on us not long ago: the app. You know, the one which they swore blind would prevent a third lockdown, which it didn't; and it caused a pingdemic as well.

I would support the idea if governments could be trusted with things like this. But these massive government IT projects sold as "making our lives easier" never end well. Seen it all before.

Thanks for sharing such interesting information.

I do however still opt for ID cards.

DH works in IT and has worked on several big government projects at the early stages.

The flaws arise because the people commissioning the software are often idiots, who have no understanding of what software can and cannot do, assume that some vitally important feature, that they have failed to specify, will automatically be included, and think they can everything they want for a bargain price.

The software consortium agrees, then halfway through turns rounds and asks for millions more to pay for all the 'unforeseen' problems.

Just think of the problems that the Post Office software caused, how politicians, the civil service and the software people lied and covered it up, and imagine how well such a bunch of useless numpties could fuck up a digital ID system.

That is a very chilling thought!!