Has the Government shot itself in the foot?

[Fernie6491]

Just wondering about the idea of the government stopping winter fuel payments for us oldies.

i admit we are comfortably enough off, to not actually need it, but they say those claiming pension credit etc., will still be paid the fuel allowance.

The goverment spokespeople say not all pensioners who could claim pension credit are doing so. If this prompts those pensioners to claim their due, the government will be paying out a whole lot more than they currently do, plus the allowance .

They seem to have shot themselves in the foot, trying to save money, but actually will end up paying out even more to those who previously never claimed benfits. Is this correct, or am I going mad?

I am one of the pensioners who are losing it and I have no complaints.
I find it depressing that the people shouting now didn't shout when benefits for families with young children were cut, or when EMA for 16 and 17;year olds from low income households was abolished. Those people weren't able to increase their income.either.
I feel as a pensioner I do get a lot. Losing £200 a year won't impact me much.

Strikes cost the country money. Labour have said the priority is economic growth. The economy won't grow with half its industries on strike. As for pensioners, they have their 'pay rise' well protected by the triple lock. If everyone is to share in the pain (which seems fair and just), which would pensioners prefer to sacrifice - the WFA or the triple lock? Because many working people are being hammered by high utilities bills too - I personally would prefer to see energy prices, and bills, come down across the board for everyone, including pensioners. Funny how many of these same people never raised an eyebrow when the Tories went for the disabled and plunged many further into poverty through Universal Credit changes. Typical Tory voters - not remotely bothered until it affects them. But quite happy for benefits to be stripped from millions of others.

Well maybe in your case but it will effect lots of others…

And for the record , people of working age can if they are prepared to look for it - look for alternative employment. Opportunities are there if people are willing to re-train , or look for something different.
As for 16/17 years olds , when I was 17 I left home and went to the Armed Forces. Ok , most people don’t do that.

16/17 years old can work , even part time hours.

But what happens if the unions keep coming back for more ?

As for train drivers- they work for private companies. I’ve never understood why the government should get involved in pay disputes between private train operators.

And if train drivers get a pay deal, surely their employers pay it ? Why does the government have to pay it?

If it’s not justified, you deny it. But you negotiate to, say, I prove terms and conditions.
Demonising the unions is silly. They are just working people.

You didn’t answer my question. Most train drivers work for private companies. The companies bid to run the routes , for presumably a nice profit. Otherwise they wouldn’t do it.

They work for private operators, why does the government need to pay the train drivers when it’s the responsibility of the employer.

Tesco doesn’t expect the government to pay their staff pay rises .

I don’t know the ins and outs of the contract and how it gets paid. I was addressing your first question.

Yep agree with this, 100% he is hitting non Labour voters to appease those who are reliable voters. Can see the same thing with VAT in private schools. He has lost few votes with either while his loyal voters are clapping their flippers excited to see money taken from others rather than worrying about the economics of it all..

Why is there NEVER any discussion about capital ?

If you rent are on a state pension only you will get housing benefit and council tax reduction if you have less than 16k

If you are elderly and disabled you can get attendance allowance (single person) and carers allowance premium (not actual CA + attendance allowance ) as a couple .. you would need at least 30 k not to be entitled to pension credit in this situation.. in which case just pay it from your savings !!

As a visiting officer for the pension service - if I had a £ for every pensioner who didn't want to declare savings ' as they are for my kids' ... I would be very rich .

Just to add .. I live in the south east rurally .. just in one lane of 7 houses .. all worth well in excess of 1m .. people who retired early in their 50s .. with huge pensions.. 12 people who never needed the WFA.. who will no longer get it . ONE LANE !!

Multiply that by the entire country.

It is absolutely the right call.. the Tory press is driving this . If anything like my lovely neighbours they give it to their grand children for Christmas.

2*dogsandabudgie
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When you're young you can get about more. The best way to get warm is to go for a brisk walk, which the majority of elderly people can't do. The elderly are classed as a vulnerable group, they can't help being old and feeling the cold more.

Then they need to claim attendance allowance !! and if less than 32k will
Get pension credit and the WFA !! but if they have more than that then they need to pay it from savings. !!

How many struggling families have that in savings ?

But there are many who do. And they don’t have to qualify for pension credit to do so. That’s the point.

You can’t claim attendance allowance for being old and feeling the cold. You have to have a disability over and above what would be considered age related. And to clarify you mean £32k in savings, not income ?

Demonising the unions is silly. They are just working people. This.

It's not about the people it's what can be afforded against demands.

And how that can happen if growth does not

My dad earns £13,000 per year pension and pension credit and is on his own, so has an increase of the single person discount being removed and also the winter fuel allowance being removed.
I feel like they are partisan and because more older people voted Tory on the whole that is why they are being punished.
They gave money to those who have voted for them, the public sector Unions etc and are uninterested or hostile to anybody else.

Theres different takes on this.

Yes there are pensioners I know of who are in their 80s. They haven’t worked for 30 years, retired in their 50s. They live in expensive properties in the south east, have decent pensions, widow pensions etc. They won’t miss the winter fuel payment, probably won’t even realise it’s not being paid. They also have money in savings.

BUT

Theres also people ( mainly widows) who live in overinflated priced houses, which they brought in the 1970s. Yes they live in houses which are worth a few quid ( 3 bedroom semi’s) but they don’t have much money. They don’t have good work pensions or money in savings.
They scrape by on a pension, they already struggle to heat their large houses.

Im sure some people will say , they should just downsize and they don’t need a 3 bedroom semi, well maybe they don’t want to move because it’s too much of an upheaval, or it’s a family home that is going to be passed down to their relatives.

Everyone’s in a different situation, but just because they own a nice house, it doesn’t mean they’re well off.

or it’s a family home that is going to be passed down to their relatives.

I understand the sentiment but it’s really not the tax payer’s job to help pensioners pass on homes to relatives.

I agree noone in a civilised country should freeze. But believe me ,you feel the cold more as you get older. I have been ill this week and really want to put the heating on but I darent. I'm just above limit for PC . And it's not even winter yet! Spent day in bed mostly just to keep warm. I never felt the cold when i was younger . But I accept the loss of WFA and will manage without. I don't think KS and AR accepting freebies was a smart move or a good look despite AR saying she had not broken any rules . I understand they are not going to accept anymore. They obviously aren't in need so I don't understand why anyone would think this practice has ever been appropriate ( irrelevant I know ,but that one outfit donated to AR must have been from someone who doesn't like her much!)

That's true. But that's not what some of the posts have been saying. For example, referring to "his union friends". Unions are representing working people.

There is some basis to this though even if the language isn't resonating

A gov will have a policy approach to unions and this Labour gov is more tied to them. I saw the BMA said they expected above inflation pay rises from now on, so Labour need be pretty sure they can do this, especially since they have changed a law too

Listening to some people speak on this Blair didn't really do the union thing to the same extent and did better than Labour in the 70s

I am nowhere near retirement age and this policy means I will never vote Labour in any future election.

Taking away winter fuel allowance from a single pensioner on 1200 a month is disgusting.

Means test and set it at a respectable level but to set it at pension credit level is terrible.

It’s not £1200 a month either. If you’re not claiming a disability benefit like attendance allowance, the threshold for pension credit is £218 a week - less than £900 a month. The WFP needed to be means tested out of the hands of wealthy pensioners. Setting the threshold at pension credit doesn’t do that - it punishes those who are just a few pounds over the limit, so that they lose out of hundreds of pounds of support. It’s lazy policy making and it doesn’t bode well for what’s coming in October.

Very often that home won’t be passed down to relatives. It’l be sold to pay for care.

My point is, many older people are in big houses but don’t have much money.
So the winter fuel cuts will effect lots of people, particularly widows on a state pension.