Has the Government shot itself in the foot?

[Fernie6491]

Just wondering about the idea of the government stopping winter fuel payments for us oldies.

i admit we are comfortably enough off, to not actually need it, but they say those claiming pension credit etc., will still be paid the fuel allowance.

The goverment spokespeople say not all pensioners who could claim pension credit are doing so. If this prompts those pensioners to claim their due, the government will be paying out a whole lot more than they currently do, plus the allowance .

They seem to have shot themselves in the foot, trying to save money, but actually will end up paying out even more to those who previously never claimed benfits. Is this correct, or am I going mad?

They seem to have shot themselves in the foot, trying to save money, but actually will end up paying out even more to those who previously never claimed benfits. Is this correct, or am I going mad?

Shot themselves in the foot? No. It's a duty of care that has been neglected.
If someone elderly and entitled to benefits is not claiming, they must be living an uncomfortable and even dangerously poor existence. It is a duty of care to ensure that our elderly are not starving, I hope the message gets out.

The thing I find saddest is that the DWP obviously know who the people are who are entitled to PC and are not claiming, but do nothing to ensure they claim. Why can't they just be given it automatically? Why are these pensioners left to live in poverty?

AND now having the 25% council tax reduction removed?
@redhatpurplehair have you got a reliable source for that claim?

What a horrible reality and what does this say about the evil KS. I feel for the lives of poor pensioners that he will make even more miserable. Shame on this government and hopefully is a short lived one.

The trouble with means testing is that it often costs more in administration that it saves. Council tax banding may work to some extent but the administration costs would be high

I disagree. This policy isn't only about scraping back money, it's about ensuring money goes to the correct places. So if it's being taken away from pensioners who are not in need and reallocated to those who should be receiving pension credit, then that is a far better use of it.

Personally, I liken Starmer to Gordon Brown, and he's absolutely nothing like Blair.

Brown and Starmer are both clearly intelligent people, but are poor in the media and both are "out of touch" with ordinary real people, and maybe a little short on common sense and thinking about consequences of their actions.

We saw a lot of it with Brown, when he'd change something, and then have to change it again, or reverse it, pretty quickly, when the absolutely foreseeable "unforeseen" consequences happened.

Starmers WFA is a real own goal, especially now they're having to push people to apply for pension credits who didn't previously, which will almost inevitably mean more will be paid out in pension credits and other benefits than is saved on not paying the WFA! DuH!

Removal of the 25% council tax single person reduction will be extremely unpopular 🤬

They should have imposed a threshold of say £60k, aligned with child benefit claw back, so it wouldn't have affected the vast majority of pensioners with average incomes, and only affected the richest pensioners with incomes over £60k. People talk about cost of admin, but they weren't worried about that when they brought in the child benefit tax, were they?

I'd go further and say no "benefits" at all for those pensioners over £60k, i.e. no bus passes, no free prescriptions, etc. They really don't need the extra benefits.

Though I'd probably go even further and remove state pension itself from those with income over £100k.

I do not think that the pensioners who are not claiming pension credit even think about applying for it.

It is unlikely, in my view, that only giving WFP to those on PC is going to encourage any more people to apply for PC.

PC is misunderstood. I helped my neighbour to apply for it, and it was really simple.

It's mostly people on Attendance Allowance who get it, and there are millions of pensioners who don't realise that they're even entitled to that.

I don't understand why this is, surely it can all be done by an algorithm 🤷🏻‍♀️
Regarding the winter fuel payment- why can't they do it like this: if you earn £100 over the threshold your winter fuel payment is reduced by £100, etc?

@hairbearbunches

are you trying to force elderly people to move out of their homes??

living in whatever CT bands doesn't mean you have the money to pay more in act without selling your home.

@TheShellBeach

It is unlikely, in my view, that only giving WFP to those on PC is going to encourage any more people to apply for PC.

The publicity it's caused will encourage them to think about it and maybe apply, whereas previously, they may not have even known about it, or thought it not worth the bother.

This is behavioural aspects of stupid tax/benefits rule changes. There are often "tipping points" up to which people will pay the tax or not claim benefits, but then "something" triggers them to take action, which may be the smallest/simplest of thing.

Your comment, as I quoted above, is a bit like MP Dawn Primarolo (Paymaster General) recorded in Hansard as saying in Parliament that she didn't think sole traders would convert to limited companies "just to save tax" - followed closely by hundreds of thousands of sole traders converting into limited companies - all due to Gordon Brown reducing corporation tax for the smallest of limited companies! Duh!

Countries who qualify have the same average temperature than the uk. So yes some European countries still come under that umbrella.

Or are you saying that as soon as you are resident in another country you should lose everything you're entitled to?
So should an expat in Spain not be entitled to their state pension?
I agree it needs a review but to continually repeating misinformation doesn't help any healthy debate.

Yes they have. The older generation are the most likely to exercise their right to vote for starters. Pension credit is for the absolute poorest pensioners but plenty struggle on state pension so it really shouldn’t have been cut for those too.

Hopefully....
We'll see...

Totally agree. Well written

But is this not obvious? You keep happy the ones you think will vote for you? Tories depended on pensioners, Labour do not - they depend on public sector workers who are unionised so they want to keep them happy. A lot of them are also quite rich and have rich mates and donors so will want to keep them happy as well.

Do they tend to vote Labour? Do they drive the economy? Have they suffered disproportionately thus far?

The 25% reduction has not been announced.

Yes definitely needs a scale.

I think all benefits should be means tested. If they can means test child benefits, why not winter fuel benefit? And yes, if pensioners haven't been claiming all the benefits they're entitled to, then now is the time to remedy that. But I don't think there should be any such thing as 'universal benefits'. No one in my family needs winter fuel payments - they're all very comfortably off.

The current 70+ generation, are the richest generation that has ever been. There are hundreds of thousands who do not need the fuel allowance. You shouldn’t get a “free pass”, where no benefit is challenged, due to your age. This “Daily Mail” view that “the elderly” have all spent thier whole lives contributing, and will be freezing to death without WFA is just not true.

PIL just bought a £250k Bungalow with cash, they didn’t even need to sell thier house (they have sold it now). They do not need WFA.

Means Tested is fine. If people need it, let them have it .. and the line has to be drawn somewhere.

Poverty is much more ingrained in the younger generation.

It's a bit harsh considering we already pay 17% for VAT and climate levies on energy bills.

Source: https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9491/

Components of a typical energy bill
The July to September 2024 price cap consists of:

• 39% wholesale costs of energy
• 23% network costs
• 14% operating costs
• 12% policy costs (levies to support low carbon generation, energy efficiency and vulnerable customers)
• 5% VAT
• 5% assumed suppliers (profit) margin
• 4% other costs.

In the first half of 2023 all of the ‘big five’ energy suppliers (which had reported) saw substantial increase in their profits.

ALL OF THIS.