To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

I expect @virgocatlover is also in favour of euthanasia for the elderly, like some others on Mumsnet.

The ageism on here is shocking. The last laugh is headed your way soon though!

The cut needed to happen- I’ve heard too many wealthy pensioners brag about fuel payments in the past. Even heard some brag about managing to claim it twice because of technicalities.

The cutoff is at the wrong place however. Those on pension credits are now marginally better off than those with just a basic state pension.

My elderly mother lived in a 2 bed flat on pension credit until she died earlier this summer. The housing benefit didn’t cover all the costs of the rent as the flat was a 2 bed not a 1 bed so she paid the extra herself from her pension credit.

She didn’t need the winter fuel allowance, certainly didn’t rely on it - but it did buy some more pub meals for us while she was here.

No I'm not in favour of that!

They should target the scroungers and freeloaders who languish on incapacity benefits for imaginary illnesses not frail, elderly people who are deserving of our compassion

It doesn't have to be either/or though; if the will existed they could target both, provided they already have enough to stand on their own two feet

However Labour won't be unaware of the stats which suggest pensioners are more likely to vote Conservative, which is what I meant about political spite

It is those just above the threshold who will lose out

Edited to add it always is, @ShamblesRock; the very rich can look after themselves and those with very little are rightly protected, leaving those in the middle to bear the brunt
It's also those in the middle who tend to make up the bulk of swing voters, but with the majority they have our current government doesn't need to worry too much about that - which is another reason I don't like massive majorities, no matter which party's concerned

I think it should have included those receiving attendance allowance (effectively a benefit for over 65s with some form of disability/need).

I think that you'll find that they are. Source: https://ageing-better.org.uk/housing-state-ageing-2022#:~:text=In%20total%2C%2080%25%20of%20those,or%20over%20were%20owner%20occupied.

There are two million pensioners living in poverty. I’m not sure you realise how low the state pension actually is, one of the lowest in Europe. Those who don’t receive pension credit will mostly just be managing frugally. The whole point of having universal benefits is that it brings in everyone though, in this case, I think they should means test it to bring in those who only get state pension. . Many people are too proud to claim PC or go to their council to ask for a one off payment. For those saying the pension increased by a lot last year forget it was pegged to inflation. I don’t know why you think that they aren’t paying the same increased prices for food, services, travel and bills that everyone else is paying. I’m really appalled at the government for bringing this in. Rachel Reeves obviously thought she could announce it before recess and everyone would buy into it. I think they’ve made a very stupid error.

It may have been a better idea not to make those who get just over the amount for pension credit a lot worse off than those that get pension credit with all its extras. This is what the main furore is about

Not if you are getting one pound over the cut off. Then you end up a lot worse off. I know lots of older farm workers who lived in tied cottages end up in council or housing association houses. Some are really struggling. I think you just know lots of well off pensioners.

My parents were receiving it, they own their £500k outright and have three holidays a year!

I'm guessing you mean home, my parents house is worth £300k+, they probably paid well under £50k for it. It is largely irrelevant though as that isn't money they can get to. (Equity release is generally a very bad idea)

I don't believe that a household with two people earning £60k each needs child benefit but they still get it. The threshold for WFP is way too low and will push more people into choosing heating or eating. I suppose it depends where you live and if you actually see people struggling firsthand. In my area the average wage is £26k before tax so in the future I suspect a lot of people will struggle because how do you build up a good private pension on that wage?

Did you feel this strongly about the 2 child benefit cap?

The other option is for OAP’s to cancel their direct debits and only pay what they can afford… they can’t legally cut off their power because they’re vulnerable… so the debt then either dies with them or comes out of their estate…

Please don't peddle dangerous bullshit.

The moratorium on not legally cutting off power to pensioners only applies between 1 October and 31 March!!

FFS

***

PS There are some exceptions for not being cut off at all - eg if you have children under 6, disabi,ity - but that's dependent on whether the support,ire has signed up to the Energy UK Vulnerability Commitment'

All those conditions have been diagnosed and therefore they will be able to get medical evidence from their GP. It's your opinion that those conditions are made up. The diagnosis isn't enough, they have to be so crippling that you can't work. I doubt your neighbour told you, whilst doing the cha cha, that he's making up back problems. Sounds like an assumption from a Daily Mail reader.

Remember that the plural of anecdote isn't data.

I think on the flip side that points out that 1 in 5 pensioners don’t own their own home. So we can say as a starting point, these 1 in 5 pensioners might be impacted by losing the allowance..

When we give statistics like this:
1 in 5 women have been victims of sexual assault.
1 in 5 people have some sort of mental health issue
1 in 5 adults experience domestic abuse in their lifetime.
1 in 5 employees report their work suffered because they had money worries.

1 in 5 elderly people might not be able to heat their homes this winter.

it’s implied that 1 in 5 is a lot, an unacceptable amount.

It’s the same thing here. It’s unacceptable that 1 in 5 old people might be affected by this.
Rather than trotting out who does own a house, who can afford, flip it round and look at the don’t haves, that can’t affords. 1 in 5 is a lot.

Is it perhaps due to fear of a slippery slope? 'At first they came for the winter fuel payments and I did not speak out'.

People may fear this will happen to the state pension but realistically that will have to happen anyway in some form. Perhaps if we make the smaller cuts now it will reduce the magnitude of the cuts to things like the state pension that are inevitable due to a smaller working population.

It's pants and I really wish it wasn't so, I'd like to make solid plans for my retirement knowing what the state will be putting into that but that's just the way it is I guess.

My retirement age relatives don't need WFA. One lot always take everyone out for "winter fuel" pizza when it comes in and the other lot more ethically donate to charity.

The cut off probably is a bit low ie there a people who don't get pension credit who would benefit from it but administering a totally separate means testing system would cost £££.

However, if they come for single person council tax discount that will be a big issue. It just makes living on your own even more expensive than being coupled up where you can share all utilities etc. Also, I don't know the stats but in my friendship circle (forties) most of the single person households haven't had any kids through school which represents a big saving for our local authorities.

The poorest pensioners aren't all on pension credit.
My mum is literally three pounds over the cut off for pension credit so when you add on those things you can only get if you are on pension credit, she now has less to live on than those on pc.
She already struggles and was relying on that money to afford to put the heaters on at all ( her home has no central heating or working fire and she only has a couple of electric heaters). I've got to find a way to keep her electric going or she's going to freeze to death in that damn place with no heating, no hot water, no working toilet and black mould everywhere.

my god, what i would do say to you now that would get me deleted.

JFC.

None of those are made up... and trust me my 'back problems' do have evidence in the MRI scans that show my spine crumbling. My brothers ME/CFS has plenty of medical evidence from his scans and tests over the years... its identifiable now.

Absolutely astounded at the disgusting level of ablism in this post.

Sorry for that rant. I'm very frustrated about it all and it just spilled out. It's not relevant to the conversation.

I totally agree with you OP

The reason there is uproar as losing the winter fuel allowance is because it's the more vulnerable age to be targeted. Yes stop it for the wealthy.

I'm sure it won't be long before the government start stopping the child allowance for the more wealthy in society. Which it should be.
Let's see how big of an uproar there will be then.

Both of these benefits I'm not entitled to so doesn't affect me.

Like many benefits, it's too expensive to set up precise means testing, which is why it's a blanket 'No' for all pensioners.

The issue is, and this applies to a LOT of benefits (and also taxes) that it is the people who are JUST over the limit who suffer most.

My Mum is very old and not on pension credit. She is just over the limit as her pension includes a little from my late Dad's company pension.

She DOES get attendance allowance as she has health issues.

Also, bear in mind @virgocatlover that because the personal allowance threshold has been frozen, many pensioners whose income is a little over the annual PA of £12K (and a bit) are now paying tax.

It seems a strange situation because pension credit brings a pension that is low ( because of not enough contributions over a lifetime) to the same level (or more?) of the full state pension. So anyone on a full state pension who's paid their NI all their lives is now penalised, but anyone who didn't and gets PC can claim extra benefits.