To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

Perhaps some of these homes are
-in such bad condition they are unmortgagable, or

• you mention they have adult DC living there too as it is harder and harder to get on the property ladder so they need the space.

-or they are afraid to move as on a 5yr wait list for major surgery and would lose their place if they moved. Lose patient transport. -or depend on carers/support network for daily needs that they’d lose if they moved -a new build flat may not be designed to be age accessible- you have a fire and the lifts are shut off, how fast can your 85yr old ass go down 12 flights of stairs? Or do you just die in the fire? -new build flats are often in urban environments with high crime and being old makes you more vulnerable to being targeted

I agree downsizing is logical, but the decision to sell the family home is multi factorial.

So you could start working at 33 having never paid a penny in NI before then, and still have 35 years by state pension age.

Some of these comments ( and another similar thread) are nasty beyond belief. Do you not understand that some pensioners are poor. That many people were never in a position to provide for their financial futures. That ...usually women..had low paid jobs, disabled children ,relatives needing care and there was little support. In fact in my own case and others that I know there was none. It will be interesting to see what the budget brings. If it's tough on some ,I hope it's tough on all .

I don’t think it’s totally unreasonable.

Maybe the means test is too low or unfair (like the child benefit where a couple can earn £99000 but a single person can’t earn £50000).

Means testing is fair though. My late father used to pay me (a student with temp jobs) his winter fuel allowance so I could heat my flat as he lived in shelter d accommodation and didn’t have to worry about affording his own and he was only on a teacher’s pension plus state pension, he was hardly rich, just comfortable. Living a quiet life with the means to pay bills and buy a few luxuries without concern. I actually couldn’t afford heating and was getting ill due to this.

Many pensioners are very rich and there are actually younger people, babies etc who are dying from not being able to make ends meet. I’m sad that people won’t get money they are used to or were looking forward to but we have to prioritise people who actually cannot afford heating or funding public services like the NHS first over an unnecessary benefit.

@PeachShaker Many pensioners are not rich! They have an income and some savings just above the pension credit threshold. That is not rich! They don’t get benefits. Being on pension credit actually gets you a lot more and you could just be £200 above the threshold and you lose far more than that. I think most pensioners try and live within their means but they cannot always control where they live or heating costs.

Yes, plenty are on cruises and having a great old age but plenty really don’t.

You can't understand someone not wanting to burden their family with the cost of their funeral ?

As I said, no imagination. Most of the old people I know would do this.

One day you will become a pensioner and you have no idea what situation you will be in...Older people are treated terrible in this country. The UK give a smaller percentage of it's GPD, to state pensions and pensioner benefits than most other advanced economies.Vunerable people are an easy target, they can't go on strike, they have no weapons to fight back....You never know what's round the corner. ....disgraceful

You’re basically saying what I did - many are not rich, many are below living income and many are well off enough not to need the benefit.

I assumed the government would get the threshold wrong as they usually do and they will make it unfair but spending taxpayers money on those who are actually very well off when others are suffering from lack of healthcare or not qualifying for heat benefit because who cares if they have a newborn baby there is no fuel payment for that.

Obviously it’s very idealistic to imagine a government actually taking money from where it isn’t needed AND redirecting it to where it is needed but I can’t fault them for trying.

As I said my dad wasn’t even rich and at the time I was in greater need of the money than him. I didn’t qualify for any financial support from the government, despite being unable to afford heating, while my dad could afford heating and was being given money to find his heating. This is t about me per se, but the point that many people are in greater need of support and we shouldn’t complain when the comfortable and rich are annoyed to miss out (often the well off are so because they are careful of income and would feel short changed).

I agree though the thresholds are wrong, as they are for most benefits and taxes.

@PeachShaker They have had years to think about this and how to do it. It’s a massive own goal according to most Labour commentators. It’s going to save relatively little if those 800,000 (estimated) pensioners now apply for pension credit so get more pension and fuel help! Labour have totally cocked this up. Starmer has been a complete idiot to not realise what a backlash would be unleashed. They should probably have just cut it for higher rate income tax pensioners. They almost certainly don’t need it and are surely the target!

NOT ALL pensioners are wealthy OR ANYWHERE NEAR well off!! my poor mum due to being married ( her hubby has terminal cancer) is just above the pension credit qualification and she text me this weekend past to say shes soo worried how they will be able to afford the heating on WITHOUT the winter fuel allowance. when her husband dies she will not be able to afford the bills in their home. thye own thier own home but are cash poor. there are many thousands of pensioners who just miss out on pension credit but are not by any means well off and are still really struggling to pay the bills. she is already worrying about christmas. i always tell he not to bother with xmas gifts but she feels awful not doing so even if its just something from the pound shop. dont judge ALL pensioners on those well off or wealthy and maybe taking the P !!

I’m not judging any pensioners, why would I?

But fact is some pensioners do not require a fuel payment to cover their fuel costs. This does include many of the politicians pushing for cuts who will themselves not qualify for the payment when they retire.

The fact also remains that the threshold means some people who do need the fuel payment to make ends meet and cover their fuel costs.

However I stand by it being ok to take a financial benefit from those who do not NEED it and are not close to struggling. Like people with savings of over £50000 maybe as a start. I’m no expert but I’d hazard a guess that they could cope, after all you’re not allowed close to that for unemployment universal credit. Shame the experts can’t find the right threshold, be fair and ensure those in need are supported.

I’m sorry for your mum being a totally avoidable casualty of the threshold. That is totally unacceptable.

I won’t even qualify for a state pension at all as I do not work and have been a career volunteer and am now a full time (actually home educating not just managing the house while child is at school) parent). I pay taxes out of my modest income from my mum’s pension which I receive due to my disabilities, but apparently that isn’t enough to meet the threshold to get state pension so potentially I will get absolutely nothing as a pensioner and be required to work despite being unable to sustain employment. This small amount I am taxed is used to fund things like schools, which I’m not even using because I’m actually providing that myself but I don’t mind because I believe children should be able to access government funded education. I also believe people should be paid fuel allowance if three need it.

Sorry about your dad’s situation. It’s not too far from mine though it was my mum who died. She assumed my dad would be ok, financially at least. Unfortunately he wasn’t and whist handing me his fuel allowance he didn’t pay his mortgage, and was evicted and bankrupt. He could easily have covered his costs, the problem was a mental breakdown and just not paying bills and getting into debt to meet credit payment demands on credit cards he took out to buy food. Unfortunately a small heating allowance wouldn’t touch the surface of the financial blackhole he fell into. Sadly he died too soon after I had had him living in my sofa before finding him supported living. Maybe he did in that moment need his fuel payments to by food, I don’t know. But he wasn’t paying any heating bills. Or rent, as it again turned out.

If you got this far, I hope your mum gets the support she needs in terms of fuel payment. She is not someone I think should not receive the fuel allowance.

Stupid threshold!

The reasons many object are in line with the reasons articulated in the House of Lords. (See below)

“The House of Lords ‘Companion to the standing orders’ explains that a resolution to reject a negative instrument takes the form of a humble address to the King.[32] If Baroness Altmann’s motion were passed it would have the effect of rejecting the regulations:
Baroness Altmann (non-affiliated) to move that an Humble Address be presented to His Majesty praying that the Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024 (SI 2024/869), laid before the House on 22 August, be annulled because they would significantly reduce state support for pensioners without sufficient warning and without a proper impact assessment, and because they present a significant risk to the health and wellbeing of many pensioners on low incomes.
Two further ‘regret’ motions have been tabled by members of the House of Lords:
Baroness Stedman-Scott (Conservative) to move that this House regrets (1) that the Social Fund Winter Fuel Payment Regulations (SI 2024/869), laid before the House on 22 August, will leave pensioners worse off in winter; (2) the decision to prioritise above-inflation pay rises for unionised public sector professionals over the needs of the elderly, including many households that are eligible for Pension Credit but do not claim it; and (3) the lack of transparency on these policy decisions during the election period.
Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (Liberal Democrat) to move that this House regrets that the Social Winter Fuel Payment Regulations 2024 (SI 2024/869), laid before the House on 22 August, will remove support from many of the poorest pensioners at the same time as the energy price cap is being lifted; and calls on the Government (1) to take steps to identify those who are eligible for pension credit but do not claim it so that they can receive both benefits; (2) to support vulnerable pensioners this winter; and (3) to take action to end fuel poverty, including with an emergency home insulation programme and a windfall tax on the profits of oil and gas companies.
These motions would allow the House of Lords to express a particular view on the regulations but, if passed, they would not have the effect of rejecting the regulations.”

Your Mum shouldn’t even have to worry about the costs of heating her home in winter with everything else she has to worry about. No one should.

Labour are targeting the elderly and children, rushing policies through without impact assessments. People could die this winter. I only hope the regulation is squashed in the House of Lords.

This. Exactly right.

That's what you got from the OP? Wow.

This. Together with the report showing over 75% own their own home.

The Luxembourg pension argument that keeps getting trotted out is ridiculous. I just looked it up and citizens of Luxembourg pay 24% of their earnings into their pension scheme throughout their working life if they are employed or 19% if self employed. Plus taxes. THAT'S how it's afforded. Not 9% NI which btw isnt a "pension payment" it's just another tax on workers that anyone who receives income from any other means doesn't have to pay.
So sure we could start to implement that and in the FUTURE maybe today's workers could have a pension like Lux but pensioners today did not pay that while they worked.

Exactly, you can only hope it's not a government that is ready to use you as a target and to lift pay for others

As Labour are doing

Well for starters you'd have to have a party that has this as a policy, so far no one is suggesting this.
So Labours British Energy BS is just that, produce more energy, sold at the market rate, which is whatever OfGem say it is and they work for the benefit of the industry - evidence of this is when they insisted that Economy 7 prices had to increase, even though the unit price of Electricity had fallen.

Govt produce loads of legislation, so i don't understand your cost argument, Civil Servants are already employed or did you just make that up?

Of course they have influence and a voice, they can vote differently at the next GE and at Council elections.
Pensioners are far more likely to vote in the first place and Labour will rue the day they came out with this policy, its Gordon Browns 10p tax cut reversal, difference was Labour have been in power for many years.

What an utter waste of time with so many very serious issues facing the country.

I've heard plenty say "oh thank goodness we have grown ups governing us now" doesn't look like it to me.

Well said! There are a lot of thick people on this thread who have not an ounce of imagination, not to mention empathy, and seem totally incapable of understanding that the time will come when they are old.

MN seems to attract more than its fair share of these idiots.

It’s just been announced the full state pension is to rise by £460 a year from April.

I'm sorry but this is one of the dumbest comments so far in this thread.

Without childcare many people would scale back hours/not work. Childcare in the UK is some of the most expensive in the world.

For context, as a junior doctor with > 10 years experience my income was almost wiped out by having two children < 5.

We were never eligible for free childcare in the first place but it's completely understandable that those on lower incomes than me would choose not to work.

The birth rate has already dropped from 2.4 to something like 1.7 - this will not sustain a future economy. It may not impact pensioners today, but believe me when it's time for millennials to retire there certainly won't be the funding for triple locked pensions let alone winter fuel repayments.

We NEED more people to have children and it is right that society contributes in some way to the cost of this and making childcare affordable is a key part of this (as well as child benefit, which you may have noticed has been means tested since about 2010....)

Other countries in Europe (I'm thinking specifically of Germany) put a great deal more into free childcare and universal child benefit (my BIL in Germany, who earns > £100k gets 500 euros a month child benefit and amazing free childcare), I imagine for the reasons above. Yes Germany has a stronger economy in the first place in order to afford this, but we're shooting ourselves in the foot in the UK by not investing in our future.

"The birth rate has already dropped from 2.4 to something like 1.7 - this will not sustain a future economy. It may not impact pensioners today, but believe me when it's time for millennials to retire there certainly won't be the funding for triple locked pensions let alone winter fuel repayments."

I think you've covered exactly why plenty of people moaning about WTA withdrawal say things like "having children is a choice, getting old isn't" it's because people having children DOESNT IMPACT PENSIONERS TODAY. therefore they don't give a shit.

It's not for winter though, so what about the hardship until then?

Last year the same pensioners had the WFA plus extra cash directly paid to their accounts for COL help

Both gone for basic state pensioners