To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

@poppyzbrite4 he actually brags about getting £1700 in benefits for his bad back that dose not actually stop him doing anything.
He is the type of person who should be targeted
I honestly can't believe you think it's impossible to cheat the system.
You stay in your bubble

Child B is also capped / not paid at a certain level of income.
As is the free hours of childcare.

It's too expensive to means test the WFA.

They do, and this entitles them to a WFP.

Yes, because nobody needs to have more than two children, and in fact having any is a personal choice which IMO most should be funding themselves

Of course this has to be balanced against the issue that we need parents working and paying tax, but as said earlier I see no good reason for all benefits not to be means tested, whether for pensioners or anyone else

@Foxxo where did I say they were made up
I said they were hard to prove.
There is a difference

How many of the 1 in 5 are on pension credit? 'Might' is doing a lot of lifting here. They might be renting but perfectly comfortable.

We need to know how many of those renting are on the breadline. On the absolute minimum and cannot afford bills and entitled to absolutely no help. Taking into consideration that the pension will rise by £400.

It should have been tapered, not a cliff edge (even though administering it through pension credit is the easy solution). I have younger friends who are in lowish paid jobs who are stil peed off at the UC and tax credit £925 COL payout last year that people got even if they only got £1 of tax credit. Cliff edge and gateway benefits are harsh on those who just miss out. It feels lately (and it maybe MSM is to blame at skewing our views) that the "benefit system" is penalising those in work who are JAM .

If governments want a cohesive society and the consensus of the working and middle classes to adhere to PAYE, pay for private (or works) pensions contribution, save and pay their taxes then those people have to feel there will be a pay off for that. Pension credit is a gateway benefit that gets access to free dental care, glasses, council tax reductions and warm home and repair schemes etc. If you are struggling to pay for all those things on your just over pension credit it can feel like you were a fool for your hard work and frugality and you may also have the worry that managing to buy your small house means there will be not much left to pass on if you need care.

If the Tories had propsed this cut, Labour would be up in arms! I wanted Labour to give us some optimism and hope about the future, not just more of the same Austerity measures we've had since 2008 that haven't worked.
I also think the hate that old people get these days is pernicious. We'll all hopefully reach old age and wouldn't it be good to feel secure that we would be taken care of ?

I was speaking with my parents about this yesterday. They are not well off at all and are losing their winter heating allowance. It will make things difficult for them without it, and they are already very careful with their usage. They mentioned they saw an interview with Martin Lewis and he is speaking to the government about it this week I believe, and mentioned a possible way of making it fairer is by doing it by council tax band, and pay to people up to band c.

I think you’re quite privileged. I can’t tell you my sadness and anger at the fuel allowance being cut. Go spend a day in January with a home care team caring for vulnerable elderly patients then come back to the thread.

People were told to pay extra NI contributions and have now ended up worse off.

Child benefit is means tested. I don’t get. I accept that. No benefit should universal.

There are also a lot of pensioners who don’t appear to realise there is no way they put in as much as they are taking out now. We can’t afford it.

"I’ve paid my stamp” - Pensioners favourite saying

Never heard this expression before - no search hits on yahoo for this expressionand only a few on google

Every day's a school day on Mumsnet

"Things that have a diagnosis but no medical proof."

You are incredibly brave posting this @virgocatlover and it is a well articulated and sensible post. And I agree with every last word. And I say this as someone who is in striking distance of becoming a pensioner myself! (Nearly 60.)

As you say, lots of things were cut - and the 2 child limit thing came in, and you can bet the pensioners didn't give a shiny shite. But take a few hundred quid a YEAR from them (that many can well afford to lose!) and they are (as you put it) spitting feathers.

Me and DH are not loaded but are comfortable, and I doubt much will change in 6-7 years, and we will very likely not need the winter fuel allowance... Ergo I don't give a shit about it being stopped for people who don't need it. As you say, it's pretty much only the ones who DON'T need it who are griping and throwing their toys out of the pram!

These are the group of people most likely to suffer, especially as PC has always been a gateway benefit.

Goody is this is her own property or is she renting? Is moving an option?

If you don't have to pay a mortgage or rent it is! (not getting into whether most pensioners own their own property or not as OP has provided actual stats that support they do compared to 'well my grandma doesn't).

If you have two people receiving that much it's £2k a year. Say £150 p/m for average ctax - that's £1850.How many working people do you know that have that much left after their rent/mortgage every month? What are pensioners spending £450 a week on? That's far more than I have to spend.

Obviously it's not ideal to cut winter fuel, but working aged people have been hammered for the last decade - why should pensioners be the only ones to not face any cuts?

I also think there's a danger in just referring to 'pensioners' as one homogenous mass. It spans everything between the 65 y/o who still works full time and goes skiing a few times a year, and the 95 y/o in a nursing home. You wouldn't expect a baby, an 18 year old starting university, and a 28 year old full time worker with 2 kids to have the same needs, income, and lifestyle so why do we consider pensioners that way? We need to accept that we aren't in the 1950s when the expectation of the state caring for you from 'cradle to grave' was that most people would die within a few years of retiring, and change both our systems (and personal responsibility) accordingly.

Exactly! I live with someone with FND
It's what was diagnosed after everything else was ruled out.
There is not one specific criteria for it.
We also don't claim benefits for it

There are 800000 people not claiming pension credit who should apparently the other day they said massive uptake in claims now so why have they waited? Why are their families not helping them claim etc

Because we live in a global market place.

Then this lady on radio said she's not got much money pensioner but said her house is now worth nearly a million pounds. I was like fgs sell it and go smaller and love a good life in remaining cash then

I agree with you. Most pensioners I know as well agree with it as they don’t need the money. It’s good it’s being mean tested.

No winter fuel for pensioners.
Meanwhile still enough money to give billions away in foreign aid.
Makes yer wonder about priorities.

My parents thought it was ridiculous they got it in the first place. It always should be a. means tested in some way and b. given as a credit or voucher to your energy provider so it's used for the intended purpose. In my opinion it should be a higher threshold but I do understand that would be harder to implement as pension credit threshold already exists

I totally agree that it shouldn't be paid to everyone, only those that need it. I feel the same about free childcare, free school dinners for primary school etc. I have friends who are what anyone would consider RICH and who absolutely do not need it. We needed childcare help but didn't need free school meals. I definitely think a huge saving can be made by only giving these things to those that need it, I'm just not sure they always assess that need fairly.

Let's just cut to the chase - a good number of people on this thread just don’t like Old People