To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

Not true...only around 5% rent privately.

And many still have large mortgages since divorce has become more common in the over 40s (people having to buy their spouse out of the house, re-mortgage etc in later life). As for this cut, the (big) problem is that a large group of pensioners who are entitled to pension credits don’t claim it. For some this is because they see it as charity and having always paid their own way, they don’t want that and choose to struggle in poverty. For others, the application process is overwhelming (apparently the application form is 42 pages). In addition, the cut of for pension credit is £212 per week. So an elderly person on £213 isn’t entitled to pension credit/winter fuel allowance. Elderly people need a warmer home to stay in reasonable health. They are much more vulnerable to hypothermia than younger adults. Age UK tells us
“Last winter there were nearly 46,000 excess winter deaths amongst people aged 65 and over – a shocking 92 per cent of all excess deaths – equating to 379 older people a day. These distressing figures are now the highest we’ve seen in over 40 years”.
Dh and I are pensioners. We’re by no means well off and have a mortgage for the next 10-years due to my late divorce. We both have arthritis which is much worse in cold weather and I have asthma, so can’t have the air in a room I’m using cold. The winter fuel allowance has been much appreciated by us. We don’t need it though, but we’re really concerned about the elderly people who do and will sit in the cold, rather than run up a bill they can’t pay.

I've just looked at the list of European pensions. Spanish pensioners get £2,714.23 a month (£32,570 a year). It's a race to the bottom here. So much resentment from equally hard-up people. And the way Labour announced this policy has encouraged it.

I agree with you OP. Fully support the most vulnerable receiving assistance but the point is not everyone can - so what policy choices do you make? Governments in recent years have increasingly skewed expenditure towards the elderly versus working age people or children (fact - look it up for the doubters). Yet as the below FT article shows substantially more children in large families are in poverty than OAPs. Where are all the news articles about that? Should we be punishing children because they haven't 'paid in all my life'?

Housing is the biggest cost for most people and the biggest worry for many yet as the article demonstrates not a worry for most pensioners.

https://www.ft.com/content/bc19bbf4-2939-489e-a113-e21d5baf356d

OP makes some very sensible points. I'd add that if we want energy bills to be cheaper then we need to invest in the infrastructure etc needed to do that- and we can't do that if we don't have the funds to do it. Which we won't if no older people-related benefits can be cut.

If Labour want to target pensioners their supporters will say ok.

Pensioners are an easy target anyway, no way to strike or unionise. So it's pay one section and make people turn a pensioner

I mean look at those comparisons for what they get. It's madness to think someone on a basis state pension can deal with winter payments well. They'll struggle and there's no way to increase income.

OP makes some very sensible points. I'd add that if we want energy bills to be cheaper then we need to invest in the infrastructure etc needed to do that- and we can't do that if we don't have the funds to do it. Which we won't if no older people-related benefits can be cut

No you don't, you need to reform how the market works, the UK makes about 55% of its energy from renewables, by private operators, yet the electricity is priced as if it were made from coal or gas, based on european prices.

Unless this is done, wouldn't matter how much we produce or how.

Electricity also subsidises gas prices by 3 to 1.

Many of those who don't have enough NI will be female. Go figure. On top of that, I'd challenge any of the posters who are saying 'pensioners are wealthy' to live on the state pension (which puts many over Pension Credit level, conveniently for the Government). Exist on £11400pa anyone?? For every well-off pensioner in this country there are dozens living in absolute poverty, just above the pathetically low Pension Credit eligibility level. This Labour Cut will be especially tough for pensioners in the North (North of England, all of Scotland, NI) But hey-let's base all our prejudices about the elderly on a few wealthy metropolitan southerners shall we?? Un-feckin-believable just how selfish and uncaring we have become as a society towards our most vulnerable citizens. Shame on Keir Starmer and his minions, and those cheering him on from the sidelines.

I'm expecting them to support themselves, if they have expensive properties, long paid for, and enough income to take them out of benefits ( unless they are only just above the threshold, then I do sympathise with them).

I'm left of centre and don't support this policy, its political madness & somewhat cruel.
Unions don't support it, neither does the the Mirror, in fact it seems on here at least, its only Tory voters who do.

Didn't notice Tories up in arms about Tuition fees or the increase to a 40 year repayment term, easy target for Sunak.

Well for 2024 and 2025 the state pension increase was linked to average earnings, so broadly speaking the answer is at least half

And in pound amounts the increase on the state pension in 2023 was much less than the £ payrise received by the average worker

I’m truly astounded by the jealousy and hatred on this thread towards old folks. You lot have really shocked me today with your ignorance, cruelty and stupidity. I can only assume from most of the comments that you’re all from nice middle class areas. Shame on the lot of you!

I don’t know any wealthy pensioners. It amazes me when people come out and say that they are all rich. Come to the North East. It might shock you

As I explained in my post immediately after I wrote this, I typed in haste due to being so angry by the callous self interest of some posters on here. I intended to type 'there are 10+ who are poor'.

I agree with you OP. My elderly relatives are all wealthy, and mostly Tory. They thought giving handouts to people like themselves was a waste of taxpayers money. They also think free prescriptions are a joke for wealthy pensioners.

There is a myth that all pensioners are destitute, when in reality they are the wealthiest and least burdened by taxation (eg NI) and living costs. By far the biggest burden on young people is housing costs, which are mitigated for 75% of pensioners by outright ownership of property.

Sure, to be in that position, they have earned some of it. But there is also a huge, one-off, generational windfall of unearned wealth in house price increases.

I'm staggered by the propaganda that has led to this becoming a huge issue. It's a fair decision, to remove an unfair advantage to one privileged age group, but instead is being described as "theft".

Very odd.

But they will be younger with the energy and option to take second jobs to make up the shortfall. It's not easy on anyone, but it's much easier on a 40 year old to work a few supplementary hours in a casual job than a person who is 72.

ANd @virgocatlover I am sorry that you feel hard done by, but it has always been the case that young employees have to work quite hard to establish themselves in the work hierarchy.

Exist on £11400pa anyone?? For every well-off pensioner in this country there are dozens living in absolute poverty, just above the pathetically low Pension Credit eligibility level. This Labour Cut will be especially tough for pensioners in the North (North of England, all of Scotland, NI) But hey-let's base all our prejudices about the elderly on a few wealthy metropolitan southerners shall we?? Un-feckin-believable just how selfish and uncaring we have become as a society towards our most vulnerable citizens. Shame on Keir Starmer and his minions, and those cheering him on from the sidelines.

Many young people do live on less than £11k after they've paid mortgage or rent.

It's just not true that for every wealthy pensioner there are 'dozens' in poverty. Of course that does depend on your definition of wealthy.

I do agree that I always wondered why the payment is the same for colder parts of the UK.

Yes @Papyrophile that's the answer. Young people should all be taking second jobs to make ends meet (and stop with the takeaway coffees and avocado toast too, eh?)

Don’t know where you got these ‘facts’ from.
My basic pension didn’t go up £900. Also by the way, I haven’t seen a doctor in over 14 years!
There’s too much over 66s fiction on here!

Unless that 40 year old has young children to look after and then they have to pay crippling childcare costs to work those 'few extra hours'... 🙄

It would be fairer if all pensioners with a serious illness got the wfa because many with serious care needs get very little other help and as you say it can be excruciatingly expensive and not a choice but a necessity.

Right and how does that change happen... someone waves a magic wand? Or civil servants have to be hired to produce the policy, deliver the plans, draft the legislation etc. It all costs money.

What on earth are you on about? There are Labour supporters queuing up on MN to tell us what a sound and sensible policy this is.

And they’re right. It’s just the Labour hypocrisy that’s so puke-making.

I agree- There are pensioners who fought in one or some of the many other wars since WWII. I really don’t understand framing the argument as only those who fought or lived through one war from 1938-1945 deserve a benefit.

I have a DC just setting out in life who would like to move out of cheffing, at which he is very talented, for a healthier lifestyle to make use of the degree he has paid a lot to earn, despite getting only on-line teaching and solo crews for a world that is team based. We are more than a bit jaundiced about the experience.

Exactly this. Posters on this site basing their prejudices on their experience of a few wealthy southerner pensioners are pretty ignorant. I even saw one idiot stating that most pensioners live in houses worth approx £1m so should sell up. WTAF??? That twit has obviously never lived north of Essex, or west of Bristol. The lowest priced housing stock, the coldest weather and the greatest deprivation is largely (not exclusively) experienced in the North of England, Scotland, NI, North Wales together with the West (Cornwall, west wales). But hey-metropolitan feckwit politicians based in London are happy to base decisions on their pathetically narrow life experience, cheered on from the sidelines by a bunch of equally unempathetic self-centred individuals-plenty of them unfortunately here on Mumsnet.