To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

So they can't downsize, for all the reasons previously discussed, they get basic state pension and nothing more (their house being worth what it is because they bought 40/50 years ago when the housing market wasn't ridiculous), but because they own their home you think they shouldn't be supported by the state? Which they paid into their whole life? Why? What should they be doing?

So move slightly out of London and buy a cheaper 1/2 bed flat. They can’t expect to swan around in an expensive property and still be entitled to government money - that’s not how it works.

But why should they have to move from where they've lived their whole life, their community, their support system, their family and friends? The lady that owned our house before us had lived in it 66 years. She'd raised her family here, they live round the corner. She had a lot of support from the neighbours. She chose to move in with her son because she was very frail and struggling with upkeep & costs, but it's not a big house. It's has five rooms total, it's not like she was swanning around a 6 bed mansion by herself. Although if she was, and that was the family home, so what?

66 years of life, and because they're now retired and in receipt of a pension they should move out of the area so they can keep warm? Because that's what what you're saying boils down to.

Means test it by all means. But on income & liquid cash, not their home.

They may not be able to purchase a suitable property with the sale price in the same area, or even nearby. Which may mean losing their support network or being away from family support. And why should they move out of the home of years just because they cannot keep warm as a result of profiteering by energy companies?

I'm not sure what to say about people who have 10k in savings but choose to freeze.

Yes the benefit system is complex but I imagine people on so little would qualify for benefits.

This is the argument that makes no sense.

Pensioners haven't "subsidised" 25 year olds, everyone pays into and uses healthcare and education. If you want to look at it from a purely egocentric viewpoint, you want the next generation educated because you're going to need the people who look after you when you're too old to look after yourself to be educated. You also had an education and use facilities, and pensioners use more healthcare than young people.

You acknowledge that 75 year olds SHOULD have more money than 25 year olds if they've been in any way sensible with their money...so why should people who are wealthy already get a winter fuel allowance?

Agree. Having a home and community you might rely on, especially if you are widowed. People are so keen to oust pensioners.

Just wait a few more years and the houses will be on the market as wanted anyway. Taking support away and just creating loneliness issues is no great idea

10k is not a lot and will not last long with energy prices as they are. One should not, on principle, live on capital, either. Besides which many pensioners are worried about burdening their families with funeral costs - even pre-paid, simple funerals with cremation cost 3/4k each.

Then they'll be prone to illness as freezing cold conditions are terrible for your health. I would have thought that essentials such as heating your home would be exactly why you had savings. If you spent £200 a year on heating, your 10k would last a long time.

10k is not a huge amount of savings for someone that has maintenance responsibilities for a property they own and no earning potential.

Like I said, I don't know what to say about someone who could afford to heat their home, but chooses not to.

If they bought their houses 40 years ago they won't have mortgages. If they don't get pension credit, they must have other income other than state pension. They do not need winter fuel payments

Train drivers are not public sector - Major sold off the railways in 94. But it will cost the taxpayer as the franchises are subsidised so they can pay out dividends to shareholders.

If they don't get pension credit, they must have other income other than state pension.

This doesn't sound correct. Why do you say that?

There are pensioners on basic state pension which is low, that's the issue

That does not follow at all. You have committed the sin of the excluded middle, I think (philosophy degree a long while ago). Not having a mortgage and not getting pension credits does not equal able to afford to pay profiteering energy prices now. It really does not.
I am afraid you are Malvolio here - there shall be no more cakes and ale, nor any help to heat the home.

Ok so what about the other 20% you've not accounted for?

Actually you seem to have plenty to say

I said she WASN'T living a luxurious lifestyle.

It is indeed not correct which has been stated up thread on more than one occasion

Your perception of “afford” will be very different to someone who knows that once that 10k is gone then they have no other safety net because they cannot go and work and earn some more. That money has to last the rest of their lives, whatever it may bring or what broken appliances need replacing or what house repairs are needed. So yes, I can well see how someone in that position will take the decision to not put the heating on. I may not agree with it but I can see how they’ve ended up there.

Well I'm not discussing this by myself, so ditto.

I stead if making personal attacks, you could say something interesting or relevant.

Yes you are being unreasonable and you make assumptions with no basis in fact

Are you referring to me? It helps to quote the poster you're speaking to, so they know you're referring to them.

What assumptions have I made with no basis in fact? It would help if you were specific.

I never said that I had nothing to say. That was you

I’ve said upthread that my mother has coal central heating. There is no gas in the area. She has to physically watch the coal being delivered so that the company do not rip her off by leaving fewer bags than she pays for. Because they think it’s ok to rip off an 85-year-old woman

She hasn’t got spare funds to upgrade the heating in her house. Someone kindly upthread suggested the new warm house grants which she is registered for but has to wait for her local county Council to implement.

She has a full state pension for someone of her age but the SERPS component takes this above pension credit limits as she was never eligible to join a pension scheme, in common with many women of her age. When we went to the citizens advice she’s not eligible for pension credit. She pays £200 a month for her council tax the rest of the house has to be electricity apart from the heating which is expensive so she has very little left over each month

As I said up thread she uses that £300 WFA to buy herself a few extra bags of coal and some logs to stay warm during the winter months. Imagine what sort of person would begrudge her that

Where is your evidence for your statement "most are homeowners"?