To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

Around 80% of pensioners own their own homes mortgage free and only 5% rent privately - at least according to statistics found easily online. Why don’t you think this is true?

I completely take your point. My point is that they're both much better off than people who are being honest and declaring their income.

This is the real issue.

With any means tested benefit there will always be people just over the threshold.
I remember back in the day my Grandparents were 50p a month over the limit for income support. Income support would have got them a rebate in the rates, rebate on their rent. And various other benefits possibly free prescriptions etc.

Sometimes it makes you wonder if people who are close to the line would be much better not bothering with any sort of private pension and just rely on the state.

Something needs to change with state benefits. People who have worked and primarily supported themselves should not be worse of than the people who have always relied on benefits.

Absolutely but equally we shouldn't forget who put the country in such a mess with Austerity, then Brexit, Bojo, finally Truss.

As far as i'm aware the Tory plan was to remove the WFA from all pensioners, just as the raised the student loan repayment period to 40 years and cut the thresholds oh and cutting disability benefits too.

Funny how the 'right never moaned about any of this.

I'm surprised you hold the Tories in such high esteem to be honest, they always strike me as one step up from Timeshare salesmen.

Sorry. Where were you confused rest (a typo) is test. Pip is unreachable as in you can be a millionaire and still claim it.

How is that fair when they are taking away fuel allowance for people on low income? You’re only interested in a specific demographic of people. Which AA, same as PIP supports.

If you think winter fuel payment loss is bad, wait till they do away with the single person discount on council tax.

Do you have a link to confirm that is going to happen, please?

Older people are significantly better off on benefits than people with a reduced state pension and a small private pension. Pension credit unlocks lots of other benefits and some care costs covered in old age. Downsizing makes little sense as the released capital goes in care costs if you need them. I agree with @AngelicKaty its the people just above the benefit threshold who have now lost out on even more money and would be far better off on PC. The government think 800,000 don’t claim PC who theoretically could (maybe subsidised by family) so they knew that fuel benefit removal would hurt this group and those just above PC weekly money and with meagre savings. They KNEW this. This is Labour!

David Cameron claimed DLA for his disabled child.
By means testing - on one hand his child still will have got it as a child is not earning. Or you would base it on household income.. so basically a single disabled person would struggle to meet anyone as they would be a financial burden on a potential partner.

This is something I am really worried about, but cant' find anything about it happening. Just that it was asked about, and neither confirmed or denied.
I am worried because I have a family member who is already thinking suicide about his constant rising rent and fuel costs without this on top too.

Did David Cameron need the money to ensure Ivan go to a school suited for his needs? No. After the Tory party decided to close a number of special schools it was never going to be an issue. (I’m glad for Ivan)

My argument is why means test one benefit which is about 16 billion pounds less money. Why disagree with one and not the other?

What disability benefit did your mum apply for? Attendance Allowance doesn't have a mobility component so doesn't ask the same questions. This is specific disability benefit for those over retirement age ( who aren't already in receipt of Pip ) it would possibly open a gateway to pension credit ( if nobody is claiming carers so she would get the SD premium.) it is worth applying and if she gets awarded then apply for PC.

It was 26 celsius in parts of Britain on Friday, no one should need their heating on atm imo. My mother is 86 and has survived cancer. They receive pension credit and the winter fuel allowance and will have the heating on as often as they always do, but they do lead a very frugal existence. If they received the full pension and no WFA they would be in much the same situation. They should have downsized 10 years ago though and then their bills would be much reduced. Their choice.

It hasn't been announced so at this stage we don't know whether it will happen, only that Angela Rayner has refused to rule it out. So watch this space. If you'd asked me a few weeks ago I'd have said there's no way Labour would do that. Now I'm not so sure.

At the moment, it's reasonably warm in my part of Scotland. It wasn't for most of last week.

More fool them then. If we were talking about a diffeerence of £1000 then I would perhaps have more sympathy. There are young people and families struggling and doing without heating too - where’s their WFA? Incidentally my grandparents lived in a house with a range in the kitchen, an electric fire in the lounge and a two bar heater above the bathroom door which you were allowed to put on only if you were having a bath. No heating whatsoever in any of the bedrooms and no double glazing or insulation. There was frost inside the windows in winter, and you could see your breath indoors. They lived into their 80s and we’re not talking during the Victorian era either! How did old folk cope back in the Good Old Days of the 80s and 90s??!

Yep. I lost my warm home discount for the first time in my adult life the other year. No change in income, my crime was I'm in a new build, EPC B.

I have five pieces of electrical equipment I run for my disability, the majority 24/7.

My parents received the winter fuel payment. They received £300 on their account each year automatically early winter.

Their pensions are higher than my benefits to survive on (if you don't count PIP which is for disability)

I received £140, if my energy provider was part of the scheme, & I applied when they opened it. This would vary every year. I'd receive credit to my energy supplier, but it wouldn't arrive until spring.

Apparently pensioners need more than everyone else.

I have carer, here 24/7. If I was of pension age I'd be allowed to keep £40 per week extra in my benefits between they contributed my care contribution. I also wouldn't have to pay anything towards my council tax (I pay 25% as I'm of working age).

I do feel for pensioners who are just over the pension credit income levels but I heard an MP over the weekend saying one in five pensioners in the UK has assets of over one million pounds.

As I reminded myself when I lost my £140, they have to have a cut off somewhere.

@SweetcornFritter Well at least they had a bathroom! Growing up, I didn’t. Just a fire in the living room and outside loo. I remember frost inside the windows and we were always cold in the winter. Do I want to see anyone have to put up with that now?! No. I do not. Many people had little heating when I was a child/teen but I’m not going back to that and neither should anyone else.

Getting very old can be bloody expensive. DM has carers 4x a day. It’s commissioned through her LA so lower rate than if we organised privately, but she pays full cost which is £1331 per four weeks. She gets state pension which just about covers council tax, utilities, insurance, groceries so her savings are rapidly diminishing to pay for her care. She gets lower rate AA at £66 pw which pays for two and a bit carer visits a week, it’s better than nothing but a drop in the ocean. In fact she’ll soon qualify for help with care costs as her savings will drop below the upper limit in the next month or so.

I’ve no problem with her paying for care, to my mind that’s why you save for old age, to make sure you get the care you need. But once you add in cost of a cleaner, hairdresser, chiropodist, gardener because she can’t do things for herself any more, and having the heating on most of the year because she doesn’t move about and her Parkinson’s symptoms get much worse if the room is below 23°C there really aren’t many options to cut costs. The house is crumbling as much as she is and needs maintenance to keep it habitable and that’s what the savings are supposed to be for.

of course, we’ve looked at residential home options. She has refused the idea so far, so we’re basically waiting for a crisis and/or her losing capacity to force the issue. And then she’ll be paying £1300+ per week for her care instead, which is roughly the going rate for a place in a dementia unit of an averagely ok care home for residents round here. We’d sell the house to pay for that of course, but even so that money isn’t going to last more than a few years at that rate.

Ive no idea what the proportion of total care costs are born by the LA and what are paid for by better off pensioners like DM, but when someone requires care that costs in one month more than their entire annual council tax bill, that must mean an absolutely massive financial obligation on LAs up and down the country. I don’t know what the answer is but the WFA is a tiny part of the calculation of the costs of supporting our elderly.

How did old folk cope back in the Good Old Days of the 80s and 90s??!

they got hypothermia and died at home. Or got pneumonia or an infection and died in hospital.

In the Good Old Days, old people died relatively quickly once they had something wrong with them. If you were fortunate to have good genes and health you could carry on well into your 80s, but once the doctors had you in their sights then that was it (as my dad used to put it). Thanks to the miracle of modern medicine, people are living longer now, but the extra months and years are not in good health, they are after surviving a heart attack or stroke or cancer that a generation ago would have killed you outright. Now you get the privilege of surviving but being weak and dependent. I’m not sure it’s progress.

@funnelfan The issue with care in a home being paid by the state because you have run out of money means you get the most basic of homes. When you pay privately, because you have to, you subsidise others who aren’t home owners. My mums bills were £5300 a month and that wasn’t dementia care! It was a home with low staff turnover and paid them well enough to keep them. Around here, a home with dementia care is a lot more than you suggest.

I also agree - older people died earlier. It was a daily grind just to keep reasonably warm. Many women in the family helped them out as they didn’t have jobs. Unlike now.

We were privileged: we had an inside loo...but the only sink was the Belfast sink in the scullery.

We were also modern: our bath was a plastic bath in front of the fire. By then, Dad was able to get his showers at the pithead.

I remember helping Dad to block up the fireplace in the one bedroom, because we couldn't afford to heat the entire house: the only fire was in the living room.

I recall paying £900 for a week of respite for my mum. If I'm lucky, my house will be sold for £150k when it's time for me to go into care. I'd better die quickly.

I don’t hold the last government in high esteem. It was tired, out of ideas and fractious. It was quite rightly chucked out.

But this government’s shaping up to be even worse!

Refused to rule it out = It’s almost certainly going to happen.

Although perhaps the backlash over the winter fuel payment will make them think again.