To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

Yet….

Absolutely. It's estimated that of the 11.2m pensioners previously receiving the WFA, 8m simply didn't need it. My husband doesn't and none of our friends do - they won't miss it and they're not complaining about it. It's time those 8m started being honest and stopped complaining. The money should go to the 3.2m who really do need it.

I think it is the unfairness, someone who is pennies over the pension credit amount gets nothing so getting a higher pension makes them worse off.

But isn’t this true for every single benefit?

There are certainly some pensioners that really do not need the winter fuel allowance. Those on lower income will get it but those just above the threshold, those who rent and are not entitled to any kind of benefits that will suffer. If the means test it will cost too much to administer. My thoughts are that they should have gone after higher rate tax paying people first.

Agree cut off is too low. Linking to tax code or council tax bracket would be fairer.

with regards to free childcare. This isn’t really a benefit aimed at a group in society considered deserving, it’s an economic interventiom to encourage and enable more parents of pre-school aged children to return and remain in the workforce. Even an above average salary can be obliterated by the full time nursery costs of 2 children. Without the current subsidised childcare, many more qualified, experienced and professional workers (mainly women) would be lost from the work force at a time when we have critical labour shortages in many industries, hampering productivity and limiting tax revenue for the government. Even with the current system, many women are working less than they would like to due to the costs and lack of availability of childcare. There is also the hidden cost of grandparents offering family childcare which can impact on their own income in older age.

Well, yes - anybody in housing built in the last 20 years and not living in what were low value areas in the 1990s. They didn't get put into band A, B or C from the outset.

THIS! ^ And as a pp said, the ones shouting about it the loudest appear to be the ones who don't need it. Probably have to dip into their own deep dusty pockets to find the £300 for their Christmas booze!

It doesn't prove anything, it's an anecdote.

My parents are upset, my dad has to rely on his pension and which is £500 a month and my mother has become quite poorly so only able to work part time, they privately rent and aren’t entitled to any benefits so the fuel payments really helped them, unfortunately they won’t be eligible this year.

Many energy companies are offering grants to customers who miss out on WFA but will still struggle. For example octopus octopus.energy/blog/covering-winter-fuel-payments/

I am amazed that so many posters know such rich pensioners. Me and DH are pensioners as are both my siblings and their OH's, lots of our friends and quite a few of our neighbours. Pretty sure none off them are millionaires. I guess it's often the value of their property that supposely makes them so rich. Our house is worth less than £200,000 as are our neighbours.

My siblings are probably the most well off but still not millionaires. Quite a few have paid off their mortgages but some rent.

We were also paying for the loans that were taken out to pay off the slave owners when slavery was abolished. Now getting some of that money back from very rich families would be nice but of course so difficult as to be impossible. I did resent paying it though and I don't generally resent paying tax.

Many or just Octopus?

I don’t think OP said they did. She said pensioners are ‘unlikely’ to have the expense of rent/mortgages in retirement. This suggests a large proportion of pensioners will have no mortgage or rent payments, but still acknowledges some will.

The cut off shouldn't be this low. There should definitely be a sliding scale, or it should be a lot higher. You can't really compare pensioners with 30/40 year olds either. Many pensioners spend most of their day inside, some are not very mobile. It's difficult for them to keep warm in a cold house and it can be dangerous for them not to. I remember two or three decades ago there were deaths every year from pensioners getting hypothermia in their own homes. Things have been much better since older people weren't so afraid to have the heating on.

Anecdotal evidence is still a form of evidence. Lots of us know people cheating the system, because it's not policed well enough and lazy people are lazy.

My uncle has managed to get himself "medically retired" despite being perfectly able to work. He decided he didn't like his job, used a condition he has but doesn't care enough about to actually handle to say he's not upto it. This has entitled him to large amounts of benefits he couldn't get before. If someone properly looked into him, they'd know he absolutely could do a different job, and they'd take them away. It will happen at some point because he's an idiot who can't keep his mouth shut.

My neighbours have a son who doesn't work and gets benefits. He's able to work, he'd just rather do heroin. Somehow he always has money.

These people exist.

And there's usually no housing benefit entitlement if a pensioner has a partner who hasn't reached state pension age yet. Unless they'd already claimed it as a couple before 2019.

Most of the houses in the village I live in are owned by a 'lord of the manor' so lots of tied cottages, private renting and social housing with only a tiny number of owner occupiers. There's no mains gas so fuel poverty was already an issue for some because heating oil and LPG aren't covered by the Energy Price Guarantee and prices went bonkers for a time.

I completely understand wealthy home-owning pensioners don't need the WFA but it's naive to think that everyone who needs extra state help because of its removal will actually be entitled to anything. Our benefits system has so many 'cliff edges' and cut-offs built into it rather than help being tapered and there are differences too between what people (particularly women) can claim on the 'old' pre-2016 state pension and now. I wouldn't be surprised either if down the line they find that this policy hit some rural pensioners hardest. Guess we'll have to wait and see.

Well it clearly DOES prove that you can cheat the benefits system as my neighbour is doing so.

He cannot be the only person in the UK doing so can he? Also 99% sure that other neighbours (a couple with 4 children) are doing the same

I live in an HA retirement complex with 80 apartments and many of my neighbours are living on state pension paying rent with no benefit support whatever. Multiply nationally and it's far from a minority. As PPs have said cut-off point is too low. I have no skin in this as I am lucky enough to have occupational pensions as well as state pension but I know many people who are going to struggle with this.

It's been shown that means testing costs in administration more than it saves. But they could make the Winter fuel payment only for those who apply for it. Many older people live in older, colder houses - don't say 'downsize' as there's a chronic shortage of small houses with gardens near a public transport- and can't afford their bills if they're just above the limit for claiming pension credit. Don't generalise from the one or two pensioners you happen to know. As in all levels of society, there are very well off people, very poor people, and everything in between. Our old age pension is shameful. According to data from the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD), the UK government pays 29% of average earnings, the lowest of all 24 countries in the OECD. This falls well below the average of 62.9% across these countries. So, giving out an extra £300 to all does not seem too generous.

Completely agree.

@km21 they are in the minority as 75% of pensioners own homes outright. So pensioners in rented accommodation are by definition, the minority.

I think it's fair to make the winter fuel allowance means tested, in a way this is similar to child benefit which is not given to higher earners. I think that given what we are being told about the state of the countries finances there does need to be more means tested benefits and more control over what is given out as people are struggling and those who are working and who not on the middle/higher incomes feel rightly that is unfair they are working and their taxes are supporting people who can afford the mini luxuries they cannot.

What about people living in flats in inner cities? A one bedroom flat in London can be in Band D. Lots of pensioners living in social housing will be living in homes like this. Means testing is fairer.