To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

The cut off is too low.

Fine, I agree pensioners who are taking several foreign holidays a year and renting out a couple of properties really shouldn't be in receipt of it. Or those who get enough to get in the higher rate tax bracket, for example, should probably not get it.

But - most hit, including my mum, are just ordinary people with very little savings (although owns her home) who are on state pensions that they worked several decades to get. And it's wrong to hit them. The thing is, most of them are like this, so hitting them hits a lot of people and raises a lot of money. It's still wrong though.

Would your opposition be because that will affect the non-retired too? Old folks are fair game for penury, but don’t impose it on the young?

What an assumption! Maybe you think young people are fair game but don't impose it on the pensioners?

I'm opposed because I don't think it's fair for one adult households to pay the full amount when other households could have half a dozen adults and pay the same. Because it punishes people who live as the sole adult for a magnitude of reasons, they may be widowed, a single parent, have left domestic abuse etc etc etc. And because it will be disastrous to many people's budgets who already have to run a household single handedly.

They had no entitlement to Pension Credit, we were told. Then they both became seriously unwell and were entitled to Attendance Allowance for a brief period. An "underlying entitlement" meant that they were then entitled to Pension Credit. As soon as dad died, the entitlement to Pension Credit disappeared.

(This was because a married couple is deemed to be caring for one another. A single person is caring for no one, so loses the underlying entitlement. It sounds bizarre, but those are the rules.)

At no point were they entitled to have their rent paid for them.

This might not justify a universal payment, but it illustrates the fact that using Pension Credit as the entitlement marker is going to result in many vulnerable people suffering. You need your Winter Fuel Allowance most when you're housebound.

I agree. But why did Labour oppose this policy when in opposition then?

Surely they can’t all be as bad and dishonest as each other? I can’t believe the saintly Labour Party could be so cynical.

Of course they are, a government like this will be hitting every easy target to subsidise their union pals excessive demands, Why is anyone surprised, 'twas every the case!

No, it's far more complex than that and is based on income. The current maximum new state pension is £221.20pw and the current maximum old state pension (pre-2016) is £169.50pw. You may be eligible for Pension Credit if you're single and your weekly income is below £218.15pw or you're a couple and your joint weekly income is below £332.95pw.

My mum is not happy that it’s been cut but my parents are disabled and are both on their state pension and don’t get pension credits and they have to pay their full rent she is really worried about how they are going to get through the winter. My grandma has also lost it she lost her pension credits when my grandad died and now she’s lost this as well she was already worrying about how she was going to pay her bills. Unfortunately in their attempt to take the winter fuel away from the pensioner that are sitting on money they have also targeted the pensioner that are struggling on very little and they have just made things worse for them.

I would prefer the removal of child benefit and privatisation of the NHS than removal of a basic allowance for our elderly.

Some people really do live in poverty regardless of whether they meet the threshold for pension credit or not.

Basic access to heat is a necessity.

And who'd be surprised if every easy target turned out to be predominantly low-income / poor people and predominantly or disproportionately women?

Soooooo many pensioners are just over the limit, so they don’t get pension credit, my parents included. It should be means tested, but with maybe a sliding scale, or most definitely a higher cut off point. £200 odd pounds a week does not go very far for two people, especially when they have to pay full council tax etc. It sounds like you know only wealthy people, and they do not represent the majority of people in this country. People will be choosing between eating or heating, and people will be dying as a result. There are MANY other places KS could get money from, especially from the very well off. He could close many loopholes but probably won’t, just like all previous governments, as this would affect all of their wealthy backhanders etc.

Interesting. What do you think would happen to the elderly if the NHS is privatised? Do you think the poorest pensioners will be able to afford care?

By saying they are suffering from depression and/or anxiety. Neither of those are provable are they? Some GP's will definitely give sick notes for those conditions.

My neighbour has claimed benefits for over a year because he has such bad anxiety he cannot leave his house. In fact he leaves his house Monday to Friday to work cash in hand and also at weekends to go food shopping, walk his dog, go out with his girlfriend etc etc.

Tories courted the pensioner vote for years. Keir Starmer won't, that's not the demographic he sees as useful, they're not his core voter.

Times have changed. Pensioners are going to have it hard just as youngers have all through Tory rule, with "I'm alright Jacks" implying they should be more resilient. & Save more. That's what pensioners will have to do now isn't it?

I bet the pensioners who complain the loudest are those living abroad, and the ones who own homes outright and/or rent out their property(ies). It's a shame some who are deserving of help will be caught up in this. Hopefully they'll change the cut-off point.

But wealthier pensioners should sit this one out

One person is evidence of this? That's sound reasoning

@virgocatlover And because it will be disastrous to many people's budgets who already have to run a household single handedly.

The same is true for pensioners who have suddenly, and unexpectedly, had the WFA withdrawn.

But you seem to think this doesn’t matter.

Not planning on you or your parents getting old, are you?

Many people like myself who already have insurance would carry on. Most people would be covered by their employers and those over 65 or the long term disabled would be covered by an insurance premium tax we all pay.

It really isn’t very difficult.

Does your mum claim attendance allowance.

Well I got it once. The first year I was in receipt of my state pension yet 10 days too young to qualify for WFA and we could have done with it as the energy prices were so high. I did get it last year.
I am not surprised it was cut as many pensioners I know who receive it are definitely not in need and although I'm not as well off as many I can do without it and would rather the money was spent elsewhere.
However, it's been poorly done with the wrong cut off with many pensioners just over the cusp for qualifying for Pension Credit losing out. A fairer way might have been to only give it to non taxpayers or to those in A-C band properties, though I'm sure people would come up with reasons why that wasn't fair either.

One thing I really object to is MPs not losing their much bigger fuel allowances of upto £3,400 for heating at the same time. Scandalous.

This simply isn't true. The most common way energy bills are paid is by monthly Direct Debit.

You really don’t see why someone living on £880 pcm might find it hard to face a winter bill of £200+ to heat their home to a safe / healthy level for an older person?

Especially if they are a single householder, paying that bill alone rather than a a couple with 2 pensions.

And are solely responsible for roof repairs, new boiler etc and 75% of the council tax?

Women are disproportionately affected by this. Sad to see so many female MNers so callous.

There are any number of ways to have made the cut off higher. Use HMRC records to cap those with higher incomes, use Council Tax Band, keep the payment for single householders….

By saying they are suffering from depression and/or anxiety. Neither of those are provable are they? Some GP's will definitely give sick notes for those conditions.

It really isn't that simple. You can't just go to your GP and say 'i feel anxious' and they write you a note to never work again and that's that. Universal credit if you don't have children is very low and you have to be a jobseeker unless you have been declared too unwell for work OR work related activity. And often people have to go to tribunal to prove that even with obvious physical conditions. I assume with your neighbour there must be more to the story.

Many of the current pensioners will have struggled through the period when interest rates hit 15%. Thousands lost their homes due to defaulting on the mortgage and never really recovered financially.

They’ve already ‘had it hard’.

How much more do you want to punch down on them??

I'm in my 70s, on the old state pension, own my flat and have a small amount of savings so no pension credit. I will miss the WFA mainly because I feel the cold a lot more now so the heating is on longer than when I was out all day. I can wear hats and gloves and scarves but is that really a comfortable way to live? Sometimes I sit in the local library or use my free bus pass to go somewhere warm and will tick along without this benefit but a lot of the elderly will not. I know that many working families are struggling and agree that we should all 'share the pain' but please don't take my bus pass as well!

Same