To not understand the uproar over winter fuel allowance being cut?

[virgocatlover]

It's not being cut. The poorest pensioners on pension credit will still get it. It's only being changed so it's no longer a universal payment anymore.

The energy price cap was £1834 October 2023. This October it's £1717. So it's £117 cheaper than it was last winter for average use.

In April 2024 the state pension rose by 8.5% - a rise of around £900 for those on full state pension. It's expected to rise another £400 next April.

Many energy companies still have schemes for those in genuine need. Plus the warm home discount exists for those on a low income.

I understand pensions who receive just state pension and no other income may be annoyed but there has to be a cut somewhere. But pensioners are unlikely to have the expense of rent/ mortgages in retirement which is the biggest expense to those of working age.

However most of the moans I've heard and seen seem to be from the well off pensioners who are cross about losing something. I know a woman who rents out three houses and spends the winter in the Caribbean who is spitting feathers about losing the payment. Another who spent the money on their Christmas booze.

There is so much uproar about this which didn't happen when there were so many other cuts affecting young people/workers/families. All other benefits are means tested, so should WFA.

People still see pensioners as those who fought in the war and counting pennies at the till to pay for their bread and milk. But that's just not the case these days.

Thank you.

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that the government’s argument that it will raise money is a flawed one.

@IWasHittingMyMarks
They have almost no assets that helps 👍🏻
They rely on every penny so this is a setback that's worrying them whether people agree or not

The estimated 8 million comfortably-off pensioners (my husband and all our social group included) who don't need it should not be complaining about losing it at all and should be ashamed of themselves for not wanting it to be directed to the pensioners who need it most (plus a much needed saving to the Treasury to spend on something else, like healthcare). My husband received it last year and is not complaining at all about not getting it going forward. (We think pensioners are lucky that the Triple Lock is being maintained next year.)
And if Rachel Reeves acts on Martin Lewis' suggestion to extend the WFA to pensioners living in properties in council tax bands A - D (as research shows these are the properties most pensioners who are just above the Pension Credit eligibility threshold live in) then all those who really need it will get it (although we also need to address the stubbornly high figure of 880,000 pensioners who are eligible for PC, but don't claim it).

And this segment of the population is absolutely the wealthiest overall. The richest generation that ever lived.

@MyrtlethePurpleTurtle

Let's just cut to the chase - a good number of people on this thread just don’t like Old People

This is not a helpful comment. I completely agree with you that there's a disturbing level of ageism in UK but generalising doesn't help. It's the equivalent of calling young people 'snowflakes' who can't afford to buy property because of their expensive phones and avocado habits.

While the Tories were in government Pensioners have been protected at the expense of younger people. Especially during Covid. Covid measures were put in place to protect pensioners and other vulnerable people. To use my own adult DC as an example, he was ill and had anosmia (for several months) - classic covid symptoms at the start of lockdown. He dutifully followed the restrictions, got no discount for his practical education course which went online, his part time work was banned and after his course finished the following year there was much less work availability as his industry had very badly suffered.

His slightly older friends in the same industry were entitled to furlough as they didn't have three years of tax returns to prove loss of earnings.

Housing policy has discriminated against young people in general massively for a lot longer than Covid.

Just as young people aren't all snowflakes being a pensioner shouldn't confer an entitlement to be protected at all costs, to the serious detriment of everyone else.

I'm disappointed the Labour Party hasn't articulated the case for the cut in WFA better and I hope they manage to do something to improve the optics. I wonder if they could impose a reduction in the utilities standing charge to single person households and/or pensioners to mitigate the perceived loss to pensioners.

@WearyAuldWumman if your parents were in their 40s in the early 70s, they would be well into their 90s if they were alive today. They would have been pensioners when WFA was introduced and pensions were low. You haven't said if they received pension credit. Only around 500,000 pensioners are over 90 today, and as I said in my OP, many people in their minds imagine pensioners to be that of your parents generation (born 1930s and earlier), but there are only a small amount of these people still alive. That doesn't justify a universal payment.

I think there needs to be some kind of means testing. It is ridiculous to give the money to perfectly well off pensioners. If it was properly means treated more could be given to people who are genuinely struggling and scared or unable to use their heating throughout winter.

I don’t know how they would go about finding people who have slipped through the net though - who would be entitled but don’t currently claim pension credit for example. A sliding scale would have been best as it always seems some people are very badly done but with these things.

This too.

That "technicality" you refer to means that approximately 1.5m pensioners who need the Winter Fuel Allowance will no longer get it. (It isn't actually a technicality; they are on low incomes, but not quite low enough to be eligible for Pension Credit.)

Well for the first time since April 11th this year,I'm feeling relief that my dear mum has now passed away and at the age of 88,wont have to worry about money and surviving winter any more

The optics of this policy are terrible. The tories are secretly thrilled with it which says a lot.

Although it makes sense to stop subsidising wealthy pensioners, it's obvious that someone just above the pension credit threshold is hardly wealthy.

The Chancellor has been given a suggestion (by Martin Lewis) to ensure the 1.5m pensioners just above the Pension Credit threshold who will miss out on the WFA are included again, but so far she's not acted on his advice.

I'm not sure what the answer is. If they raise the threshold to say, £15k, those who get £15001 and not entitled will be complaining. The people just above the cut off are always going to lose out, like with all benefits.

“Hard cases make bad law.”

It’s difficult, but there has to be a cutoff point somewhere?

Obviously, statistically this age group are less likely to be renters or have mortgages as being 65+ the majority have by this time, bought a house.
I agree with you OP, pensioners are more than sufficiently protected by the triple lock and pension credit.
Working age people cannot continue supporting the boomers to this extent, its undermining economic productivity and is morally wrong.
The boomer generation have had an amazing run overall.
And yes, I do know about high inflation etc in the 80s as I remember it.

My mum is £2.50 over the threshold for pension credit. She lives in a rented flat. Her rent is £650 per month, her housing benefit is £350 per month.

Are they?

I disagree. My DH and our social group aren't in the higher tax thresholds and none of us needs it.

Would your opposition be because that will affect the non-retired too? Old folks are fair game for penury, but don’t impose it on the young?

@Smallsalt yes. See ONS link upthread. Three quarters of people 65+ own their homes outright (no mortgage). Only 6% privately rent.

The Tories will eventually get back into power. If they really believe what they are saying, then we should presumably believe that, upon getting back into office, the Tories will decide to reverse course and bring the winter fuel payment back for all pensioners (including millionaires).

Will they? Will they really?

Of course they bloody won’t. They’ll look at the writing on the demographic wall and realize that it’s just unsustainable.

I’m sure they are gloating about not having to be the “mean” party who actually goes ahead and takes the allowance away. But this would have happened eventually regardless of which party is in charge. And the Tories will not reverse course and give the fuel allowance back to better-off pensioners, trust me. The whole issue will be quietly dropped.

I read in the news last week pensioners on a UK pension who live in the EU will still get WFA when UK based pensioners get it taken off them because apparently it was part of the Brexit agreement. 🤔

I'm in my 70s. I agree that the winter fuel allowance could not continue to be a universal benefit, some very wealthy people were receiving it.
Along with most of the single pensioners I know my income is between £16000 and £20000, but most of us are home owners with no mortgage to pay. A high majority of pensioners paying rent can claim housing benefit.
Some of the figures are incorrect though. The figures given for the state pension and the expected rise are for the new scheme. Most pensioners are still on the old scheme, which is less.
It's a myth to think we are all sitting on huge savings and going on cruises, pensioners from working class backgrounds didn't inherit much.

I do agree though that families where the parents are in low paid work are worse off than the average pensioner.
The cut off point has to come somewhere and it's possibly to make administration easier that it's been linked to pension credit.
As the new scheme rolls out fewer and fewer pensioners will be entitled to claim pension credit because their income will be above the cut off level.