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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Early prison release for DV perpetrators *trigger warning DV*

172 replies

Usercyzabc · 07/09/2024 23:00

I’m sure this has been discussed at length but what am I missing with not understanding Starmers thinking in releasing violence men under his SDS40 scheme?

Not sure what my AIBU is, but happy for suggestions.

I won’t link, but I read in the Daily Fail today, that next week this is to go ahead.

I don’t understand.

OP posts:
Efacsen · 08/09/2024 01:55

GoldOnyx · 08/09/2024 01:40

I don’t understand what ‘You are but it happens’ means. What does it mean?

Think there's a bit of punctuation etc missing ie ''you are [comma] but it happens''

ie you are 'trivialising' DV but that happens

Not agreeing with that view - just attempting a translation

MissUnlocked · 08/09/2024 01:56

@SerenityNowInsanityLater 👏🏻 Thankyou!! That explains it better than any other post. Thankyou for your post

I don't know what the answer is I really don't but I don't think anyone realises how bad the prisons are

It's not lies when you read a headline 'only 100 prison places left' or whatever the number is

GoldOnyx · 08/09/2024 02:09

Thank you so much for your post @SerenityNowInsanityLater. I’m so sorry to read that your ex abused you and about its effects on you. I completely agree that the focus should be on what men should do, rather than what women should do, and it should have moved to that place a long time ago (and is of course still not there yet). I also agree that this early release scheme is absolutely not the answer, but I think it’s the only one available to us now. I really really hope we have a more sustainable and safer solution soon. Wishing you all the best x

Ponoka7 · 08/09/2024 02:23

BooToYouHalloween · 07/09/2024 23:21

Don’t forget it was under Starmer’s watch as director of public prosecutions that black cab rapist John Warboys was only tried for a handful of the crimes despite the many many victims that came forward meaning that he was then deemed potentially eligible for parole just a few years later. It was only due to public outcry it didn’t happen. Starmer is no friend to women.

Much more important to lock up people for their tweets than men who beat up women. Disgusting but unsurprising from this Labour government.

When Sunak announced the date of the GE he'd been told that morning that we were going to run out of prison places in two weeks.
This isn't the fault of Labour, this is the only solution. The thinking behind the release is "at least they've served some time" because if we didn't release them, the next lot would just walk free. If you read a cross section of news, you'd been reading about very violent crimes getting non custodial sentences, for the last six months.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-keir-starmer-not-rapist-11802060.amp

I could link article after article, but here's one
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/prisons-full-courts-rishi-sunak-b2429426.html
The extent that thr Torys didn't give a shit about this country is shocking. This was pre Labour.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/may/08/survivors-endangered-by-early-prison-release-of-domestic-abusers-without-notice-adviser-says
What else exactly can the government do?

The Tories let rapist John Worboys out of jail early because *you* asked them to

Have some aspirin to hand, because you're not going to like this one little bit

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/no-keir-starmer-not-rapist-11802060.amp

Valeriekat · 08/09/2024 02:31

Walkingtheplank · 07/09/2024 23:12

My understanding is that exceptions to the scheme include those serving sentences for sex offences, terrorism, domestic abuse or some violent offences.

It was be easier to reply to you if you specify what the you think the problem actually is.

It's a policy that has been implemented far too quickly for Probation to make the necessary plans for release, with many being homeless on release due to accommodation not being available for 3000 men released in one day.
And then there will be another group of men with longer sentences, so more serious offences, in a months time.

Its obvious what the problem is! Men who are violent to women are being released early.
In the hierarchy of crime, violence against women is still not being taken seriously despite the "epidemic".

Valeriekat · 08/09/2024 02:40

GoldOnyx · 08/09/2024 00:49

I’m not going to get into a Top Trumps debate of who is more dangerous as that risks trivialising this, which is pretty fucking sordid and low.

The government obviously could not release prisoners serving whole life sentences or murder sentences, so they had to release other categories of prisoners. That will include some prisoners who are serving sentences for acts of domestic abuse. Which is of course unacceptable. So we need to protest against that, which is our democratic right, and bloody well hope the government hears us.

I don’t understand your post about people posting stuff on Facebook. Of course I don’t think people who posted inflammatory comments on Facebook during the riots are more dangerous this domestic abusers. Do I think they should both be in prison? Yes.

Please do disagree with me if you like. I’m not sure where I’ve said anything that suggests I can’t stand it when people disagree with me.

You really think speech should be censored?

Zonder · 08/09/2024 07:10

Usercyzabc · 07/09/2024 23:58

@Zonder You won’t like this, but I feel like you don’t really understand the impact of DV for some victims/survivors, I respect @TheHateIsNotGood has an different and admirably view, and the trauma injustice causes.

@BobbyBiscuits sounds good to me.

I think you should never assume the lived experience of another person.

You don't seem to have read the article, my quote from it or any actual facts about what the government are looking at doing. I agree with @GoldOnyx

Zonder · 08/09/2024 07:11

Valeriekat · 08/09/2024 02:40

You really think speech should be censored?

Incitement to hate should definitely be censored. Free speech doesn't mean everyone gets to spread lies and stir up violence. I would have thought people concerned enough to post on a thread about DA would know that.

Zonder · 08/09/2024 07:12

Valeriekat · 08/09/2024 02:31

Its obvious what the problem is! Men who are violent to women are being released early.
In the hierarchy of crime, violence against women is still not being taken seriously despite the "epidemic".

No they are not. Have you read the article posted early on? There's plenty of other sources saying the same thing while the Daily Fail continue with their lies and propaganda to stir people up. It's clearly working.

Zonder · 08/09/2024 07:47

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 00:09

You made a terrible terrible assumption, so yes best to stop doing so.

Im guessing you don’t work with victims of DV, so in prison system? What is the thinking behind releasing men who are violent towards women, because as you pointed out I’m not getting it hence the thread.

Why do you keep posting as if it were true that the government were going to release loads of DA perpetrators when you know it isn't?

This takes me right back to the Tory modus operandi. Proclaim something even if it's not true and just keep saying it in the face of any evidence to the contrary.

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 09:39

@Zonder Ah, another apparent Starmer supporter upset by this discussion. It does seems we’ve got very different ideas about the kind of society we should be living in but this thread was never meant to be about politics.

Just to clarify, my post wasn’t intended to spark a political frenzy. I was simply looking for some insight into why violent men are being released early, and why some people think that’s acceptable, or borderline acceptable but sort of ok. We’ve got one poster flip-flopping between sympathising with them and berating me for reasons unknown. Then there’s another who seems to think I’m someone else just because another poster was called out for being hostile—likely due to their strong opinions on Starmer. Now you’ve joined in, suggesting that because something is quoted from ‘The Times’ it doesn’t matter.

For the record, I’m deeply concerned about violent men being released back onto the streets. With the levels of knife crime, sexual assault, and other violent acts, I don’t agree with the scheme. @GoldOnyx seems to work in the prison system, so perhaps she has better insight, rather than just throwing out questions to score a ‘gotcha’ moment.

@SerenityNowInsanityLater summed up beautifully by kindly sharing her experience, and pointed out that the time these men spend in prison is time for their victim to heal, so by taking this away from women who have been abused can even be retraumatising, and I don’t think the victims have been given enough consideration as another poster said. It’s only violence against women, so minimal
impact.

I honestly don’t get the attitude of some of these posters. The only thing I can assume is that they believe violent men can be rehabilitated, but even that’s not really clear. I’ve been vilified by some for bringing this topic up, and it seems more to do with their political leanings than the actual issue at hand.

…and still I am non the wiser as to why these violent men are being released besides’ over crowding’ whilst people are in jail for social media posts, shop lifting etc.

I did put a trigger warning on this for a reason of course.

OP posts:
Efacsen · 08/09/2024 09:54

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 09:39

@Zonder Ah, another apparent Starmer supporter upset by this discussion. It does seems we’ve got very different ideas about the kind of society we should be living in but this thread was never meant to be about politics.

Just to clarify, my post wasn’t intended to spark a political frenzy. I was simply looking for some insight into why violent men are being released early, and why some people think that’s acceptable, or borderline acceptable but sort of ok. We’ve got one poster flip-flopping between sympathising with them and berating me for reasons unknown. Then there’s another who seems to think I’m someone else just because another poster was called out for being hostile—likely due to their strong opinions on Starmer. Now you’ve joined in, suggesting that because something is quoted from ‘The Times’ it doesn’t matter.

For the record, I’m deeply concerned about violent men being released back onto the streets. With the levels of knife crime, sexual assault, and other violent acts, I don’t agree with the scheme. @GoldOnyx seems to work in the prison system, so perhaps she has better insight, rather than just throwing out questions to score a ‘gotcha’ moment.

@SerenityNowInsanityLater summed up beautifully by kindly sharing her experience, and pointed out that the time these men spend in prison is time for their victim to heal, so by taking this away from women who have been abused can even be retraumatising, and I don’t think the victims have been given enough consideration as another poster said. It’s only violence against women, so minimal
impact.

I honestly don’t get the attitude of some of these posters. The only thing I can assume is that they believe violent men can be rehabilitated, but even that’s not really clear. I’ve been vilified by some for bringing this topic up, and it seems more to do with their political leanings than the actual issue at hand.

…and still I am non the wiser as to why these violent men are being released besides’ over crowding’ whilst people are in jail for social media posts, shop lifting etc.

I did put a trigger warning on this for a reason of course.

So what do you suggest Starmer should have done with prisons virtually full and the country in flames?

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 10:01

Efacsen · 08/09/2024 09:54

So what do you suggest Starmer should have done with prisons virtually full and the country in flames?

Not add fuel to it?

OP posts:
SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 10:11

So what do you suggest Starmer should have done with prisons virtually full and the country in flames?

Place the safety of women and children at the epicentre of their discussions and decisions. And work from that point.

Efacsen · 08/09/2024 10:14

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 10:01

Not add fuel to it?

And how has he done that?

Note the country is no longer in flames

Beepbeep2024 · 08/09/2024 10:16

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 01:50

Also if they are released at 40% early or at 100% completion does anyone actually believe they will be a different person?

It's a legitimate argument: What's the difference whether they get out in 9 months or 19 months? It could be argued that the shorter sentencing won't have that much of an impact because they'll be the same asshole coming out of that prison as they went in, regardless of the time they spent behind bars.

However, what's hard for people who haven't been abused (my ex husband is currently serving a sentence) to understand is that an abuser's time in prison is the victim's justice, and crucially, their time for recovery, rebuilding resilience, making their lives safer. It takes time for a broken soul to mend a broken life. Safety, and future proofing that safety, becomes everything to a recovering victim. And that sentence becomes a victim's vital time frame to work within. You honestly feel pressed for time, this absolute desperation, as the years of that sentence pass, because it takes SO long to get your shit together after you've been abused. You've lost the capacity to make decisions, to trust (yourself, above all). You don't just shake off the abuse and step into a new life with a future ahead. Your past, as an abused woman, isn't yet far enough away. It sits there like a motionless fog over your life for quite a while.

Your abuser may be in prison but you almost end up institutionalised yourself, trapped in the prison of trauma, fuelled by an abuse that's curtailed your growth, your well-being, your sense of freedom, self, joy, and safety for years and years. You have to learn, taking baby steps, to release that abuse to the past.
I feel like I've done time alongside my ex.
I don't think I've recovered at all these past 2 1/2 years.
I've functioned. I've endured. I've moved forward. But I haven't recovered. I am so sad about that, above everything else.
And there is no system in place, there just isn't, that offers the stability and sense of safety victims desperately need once their perpetrator is behind bars. Victim Support is a courtesy call and email. It's useful. It has its place and I am grateful for it. But it's not a lean-to for victims to seek shelter under.

The need to feel some sense of justice is paramount to a victim's recovery. That release date is a crushing blow because it already comes early at present (my ex gets out in 3 weeks. He has served 2 1/2 years. He'll now serve 3 more years out on licence). He's already had a solicitor send across a list of demands to me, including financial ones. He's angry. I put him in prison. He'll never forgive me for that. And he's a vengeful fucker.
The abuse, albeit emotional now, resumes. Even from a distance. And he's not even out of prison yet.

Domestic abuse escalates to femicide too easily. When you confront your abuser and decide to leave your abuser, the danger and risk of death escalates exponentially.

It's very hard, I understand, for several women on this thread to hear someone like me say, "If this early release scheme plays out, Kier Starmer is failing women and children. I am afraid of the consequences of the government's decision, one that I don't think is right."
It's much easier to dehumanise women and children and to intellectualise the debate around releasing dangerous and violent men early than it is to listen to a woman simply say, "I'm afraid and our government is wrong and putting women and children at risk."

And it's really easy to just put the problem of male violence on us women. "Prison's not the be all and end all! Let the women take responsibility! Maybe if you stupid women wouldn't breed with these violent men, the problem would solve itself." Yes, this was pretty much said on this thread. I am paraphrasing but I'm not far off. That mentality is up there with "Maybe if she didn't wear a short skirt she wouldn't have gotten raped."

Well, maybe if more of us started such sentences with 'men should'' instead of 'women should', society could move the needle forward. Because we haven't. We're just stuck. Stop using the word 'women' where the word 'men' needs to be placed.

I am tired. I don't have a solution, of course. But I don't think this scheme is the answer to the prison crisis.
It's just so predictable that cutting corners on the preservation of female safety is the default solution here, as usual. "The women won't mind! They won't even notice it because they embody the short straw."
We've grown so immune to this reality, we don't even notice it happening to us anymore. We'd rather blow smoke up Sir Kier's ass than actually say, "Hang on a minute, our safety is being thrown under the bus here."

Edited

I'm so sorry for what you have been through and are still going through. I feel like many people think the victim can just get on with their life and live happily. I feel like they have a picture of him sitting on a prison cell sulking and another picture of the victim sitting atvhine next to a cosy fire without a care in the world. If only that was true.

I'm thinking you probably have things in place already. But does your ex know where you are? I'm thinking he does from what you said . Is there a restraining order in place? Do you have cameras /ring door bell .also can you get a police marker on your address.

My dd ex found out where she lives . He's due out of prison ( again) in 2 weeks. My dd has 2 weeks to move. I can't see that happening that fast. There's meant to be a panel meeting at the council but they are dragging their heels etc. In some respects she's still lucky that she's in a council property.

I hope your OK as you can be. Please report your ex if he does anything towards you even if it seems small.

Zonder · 08/09/2024 10:20

For the record, I’m deeply concerned about violent men being released back onto the streets. With the levels of knife crime, sexual assault, and other violent acts, I don’t agree with the scheme.

Your version of the scheme is false.

@Usercyzabc why are you not acknowledging that this isn't actually going to happen? It is not the LP plan to release violent criminals of any type. This has been pointed out to you many times and yet you have some vague DM reference and now mention the Times. You are continuing to spread lies and rumours.

It's nothing to do with how I feel about Starmer and everything to do with wanting to stick to facts.

Efacsen · 08/09/2024 10:21

SerenityNowInsanityLater · 08/09/2024 10:11

So what do you suggest Starmer should have done with prisons virtually full and the country in flames?

Place the safety of women and children at the epicentre of their discussions and decisions. And work from that point.

But that has already been explained upthread - several times - that as far as possible DV offenders in prison are excluded from this scheme but it's sometimes difficult because there's no specific crime of DA - if the DM have found 3 cases where there that's been missed then that clearly needs addressing

What else specifically could have been done?

PS I found your post last night very moving and informative

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 10:21

I get that you're trying to push the Keir Starmer fan club agenda, but he's not the main issue here. Take a moment to read the harrowing account shared and at least try to understand the real impact this has on women and children. That’s your opinion, sure, but instead of deflecting again, please take the time to read the real-life account of how this programme is affecting people.

OP posts:
Zonder · 08/09/2024 10:23

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 10:21

I get that you're trying to push the Keir Starmer fan club agenda, but he's not the main issue here. Take a moment to read the harrowing account shared and at least try to understand the real impact this has on women and children. That’s your opinion, sure, but instead of deflecting again, please take the time to read the real-life account of how this programme is affecting people.

You're showing your true colours now! True fan of the previous government - ignore facts, keep spouting the party line.

I'm done. No point casting your pearls before swine.

Usercyzabc · 08/09/2024 10:25

Excellent. One less person on here to politicise VAWG.

OP posts:
4seasons · 08/09/2024 10:35

So we are short of prison places for male offenders? I recently read an article by the Prison Reform organisation which said that there are about 87,000 male prisoners and fewer than 4,000 prisoners. (Numbers may not be exact due to my memory !) The article also said that most of the women were serving sentences of less than 6 months … mainly for crimes such as shoplifting etc.Many of these women self harm and approximately 80% had suffered domestic violence. ( again , I apologise if the numbers are not spot on .. but the article is available for anyone to read ).
I’m sure there are going to be practical reasons why we can’t do this … but … why not release non violent women and use the prison places vacated ( entire prisons ?) to house extra make offenders .
This would also make sense as it has been shown that imprisoning mothers has poor outcomes for children left behind.
I know this is probably an oversimplified solution and I’m probably going to be told why … but it is a suggested solution… and one which would avoid releasing violent men allowing women to continue to be brutalised.

4seasons · 08/09/2024 10:36

Sorry … fewer than 4000 FEMALE prisoners..

Naunet · 08/09/2024 10:45

All part of Kiers pledge to halve violence against women and girls, and what an amazing job he’s been doing. So far the tactics seem to be to ignore it, not name it when it does happen and focus more on social media posts. What’s a hero.

mumda · 08/09/2024 10:46

Estonia was discussed yesterday as they could rent us some prison spaces. As we have 15% foreign nationals in our prisons could we send them first?