Valentina Petrillo shouldn't be allowed to compete in the women's race

[AhBiscuits]

Valentina Petrillo only started transitioning 5 years ago and previously competed as a man. How can that be fair? I appreciate that she did not make the final, but she's taken the place of a woman who has worked her arse off, but couldn't surpass Valentina's natural advantage.

It's his coaching team and sport association's fault if he is publicly vilified

Except, if they know they are male and have been assessed to have gone through male puberty. And they have access and know that male puberty gives them advantages over the female people in the sport.

If they know all that, why do you think it is different?

Thank you @Helleofabore, very interesting/worrying. I'll read up. Thanks for taking your time to educate me.

To put those male people who have DSDs which enable their bodies to develope male pubertal advantage into perspective.

What other category exists where an athlete that believed they fit into the category regulations but then were tested and it was proven that they did not fit into those category guidelines any more would still be allowed to compete in that category?

And are those who argue that male people with DSDs where their body has gone through any part of male puberty, arguing that those male people deserve special consideration?

Oh stripy. I am not educating you. I am merely presenting other arguments. I do understand where you are coming from, because I, and I am sure many others have been in that position.

You can only just read and read and read and make up your own mind after seeing different points of view. If you are interested, here is a place to start.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

Thank you :) I'll read up

Technically no, according to the current rules. But don’t your eyebrows raise a bit at the mindset of a middle aged man who, having already achieved some athletic success in the past when racing as a man , cottoned on to the fact that if he says he is a woman he could race as a woman and win?( Sadly now age has caught up with him, and even with his male pubertal advantages still largely in place, he can’t win against younger fitter women.)

So why should women be forced to be unwilling walk on actors in his personal fantasies? Why should female athletes who also want to win as much as he does be pushed out of national team selections, qualifying races, semi final races, and potentially finals, medal ceremonies, record books etc to accommodate his sad little dreams.

That is where the real cheating starts , with the women who he has deliberately and cynically cheated out of the opportunity to fulfil their dreams and ambitions, to call themselves Paralympians,to run in a stadium in front of the biggest audience they have ever seen, be uplifted and deafened by the cheers, and to know that whatever the outcome of the day, they have run their best in a fair race against their contemporaries. That’s what he has cheated them out of. That’s why he is a cheat. .

Hell I agree if they know. But they don't always know and many of the counties where this seems more prevelant don't have the same healthcare systems.
Boxing - as an example - has decided weight categories and allow people to fight in their weight.

I just think we have no actual proof of some people being called names online who believe they are woman and have been raised as one.

I think the sports bodies need to bring in universal testing for example - rather than people getting to decide based on how someone looks to them they are male DSD.

Im not suggesting it's easy. But I wouldn't want to be raised a woman and then called a man based on someone's assumption of my looks.
And biologically it's not as simple with DSDs as it is with trans athletes who were born a sex and had puberty of that sex.

There's no denying more needs to be done though.

I’ve read a couple of articles about this guy this morning and I have to say, he sounds like an absolute brat. He does not feel he has an advantage or that it’s unfair to any of the other female athletes?? He genuinely thinks that his right to compete as a female trumps other female athlete’s right to fair competition. Thing is, nobody is saying he can’t compete - he can always compete in the male category, but he won’t do that will he? It’s obvious why.
Ive even read that he has compared his critics to Hitler. What an entitled prick! How dare he compare his ‘plight’ with that of persecuted Jewish people. How dare he whinge about not being let in to change with the other women. This guy, in my opinion, is much worse than IK.

Cheaty McCheatface. What an arsehole.

I agree that universal sex testing for entry into female sports categories is the only way forward.

But I think though that there would be now very few athletes who would not know they were male and have gone through male puberty. I understand your point. But which female athletes would not have gone to the doctor when they didn’t start periods. Or they started to notice their voice dropping. Combined with not developing breasts. I know young female athletes who had delayed puberty due to their athletic training schedule, they do get checked and there is some indicator of female puberty. It is not completely lacking.

In this modern world, I suspect there are very few, if any who do not know or suspect they are male. Particularly, if they live in regions where there are clusters of these DSDs so it is not an unknown medical issue.

Cheating male enabled by the IOC nobheads.

Absolutely, all sports above a certain level should instigate simple check swab test to check eligibility. But I do not for one moment believe that the likes of the Olympic boxers, Caster Semenya etc have reached the standard they have without the slightest clue that they could be DSD males.

I can't swallow the story that a 'female' competing at elite level without having started 'her' periods by late teens hasn't raised questions/ prompted investigations. We aren't talking tiny, under developed 12 year old gymnasts here. Coaches at that level should be all over any such issues because if it's not a DSD it could be a serious underlying medical condition.

Look at the away from competition dress and behaviour of IK, CS etc and nothing about it post puberty age suggests they believed themselves to be normal girls/women going about their lives believing themselves to be female. While there are male DSD that might go unsuspected until much later they are ones that don't result in signs of male puberty. Why was IK talent spotted 'out playing football' in a society in which young women don't play outside?
Why was CS at the beach in nothing but swim shorts?
A DSD diagnosis is without a doubt shocking and hard to come to terms with but plenty of aspiring athletes face devastating diagnosis of illness/ injury and have to adapt to that reality be that leaving sport completely, changing sport, accepting that they won't compete at the very top level or having to adapt to para sport.

Exactly this, and moreover there is , I believe, a huge level of collusion between sports bodies, coaches and - sadly - parents who I think are persuaded that going along with the “born a girl” story will lead to financial reward and security in cultures where having a child with a DSD, who will never fit societal norms of marriage, parenthood etc is very difficult . For coaches and sports bodies a DSD athlete offers ( or offered) the chance of international sporting success and national pride ,without the difficulty and expense of discovering and nurturing female talent in an acceptable way.

Sadly all three groups seem to forget the mental and emotional stress that the DSD athlete will go through, as well as intrusive national and international attention for all time since the internet never forgets. It is exploitation.

They wouldn't be female.

@viques absolutely. When I have mentioned on previous threads that DSD males are being sought out and exploited I have been called out on it and told I must give proof, otherwise I'm being racist. The problem lies in the fact that this would need an admission from someone that they are gaming the system and those involved still claim the athletes in question are female (even when the medical evidence shows they are not) so they are hardly likely to confirm they have known since before they began competing.

I have known dancers to not have started periods when expected due to constant training. But the thing is, they DID start periods. It was not an endless puberty suppression. They also developed breasts although they were small until they then started periods.

I have known olympic swimmers who have been chosen for the Olympics at 15, I have known international level female hockey players for under 16s, they might have had delayed starts, but they DID start periods. I think there are some myths around female bodies, puberty and sports. I also have known an international male champion gymnast who had delayed aspects of puberty. He told me he grew a foot after he stopped training so hard but he had gone through other aspects of puberty.

I also think that in many instances, male people who have DSDs who experience virilisation at puberty start heavy training for sports after reaching puberty. Sure they played sports prior to puberty. But heavy training? I do question that.

We can have empathy for the people who are experiencing these hard decisions. Because they are hard decisions. And the news is very hard to hear. And I think that there also seems to be too many people who are supposed to care about the wellbeing of these athletes who act counter to what would be showing care for them.

I blame heavily invested national sport's bodies in this as well. It is ultimately harmful to the athlete and the female athletes impacted to continue to push acceptance of male people, those who have been through male puberty regardless of whether this is due to a medical condition or an identity, into female sports.

However, again, what is the difference between these male athletes and those athletes who have been tested for other things and found that they either don't qualify for a category they believed they should compete in, or who could not even keep competing due to that life changing health discovery?

One of the difficulties in the boxing case was that the athlete had always competed as a woman and had been on the circuit for some time with no issues raised. Won some fights, lost some fights. Was banned last year and suddenly this year the punch is too hard, the opponents are scared, etc. What was it that actually changed about this athlete's situation? She was banned in 2023 by the Russian-led international boxing federation for allegedly failing an unspecified gender test. There is no specific evidence of XY chromosomes that has actually been published and much of the 'information' about this boxer is rumour and speculation. She is not trans and may or may not be intersex depending on what you read.

The reason the boxers were tested was because there were questions about their sex, presumably steaming from opponents who felt something was wrong when they fought them - it was not something that was never questioned until they were banned, they were banned because questions resulted in them being tested.

Nobody has ever claimed that the Algerian boxer is trans.

The reason the advanced tests - which were actually verified in an independent and well regarded laboratory, not in someone’s garage with a diy chemistry set - is because the athletes team chose not to appeal against the decision. By international rules the exact results of the tests, and indeed the nature of the tests used, are kept secret UNLESS the athlete appeals the results, in which case at the appeal the results are revealed in full. This is what scuppered Semanya’s claim to be a woman, his tests categorically showed that Semanya has a DSD which only ever occurs in males.

If the Algerian boxers team believed wholeheartedly that the tests would prove that the athlete was a woman then it begs the question of why would they withdraw their appeal , leaving the test results unpublishable by law. This is someone’s dignity, identity , honesty and career on the line, most people would welcome the opportunity to get international validation that their claim was just.

This man does not have a DSD.

I'm not aware of any DSD which affects males and results in both a female phenotype and menstruation. The absence of periods would be the trigger for further investigation so it would be highly unlikely that any male over the age of 18 would remain unaware of a DSD.

The males who do have DSD's and compete in the women's category all seem to have the same DSD and there are reports that they are actively recruited to train for female competition.

I agree that the rules need to change but I'm not sure why women should be disadvantaged because a DSD affecting males was not picked up at birth. It's unfortunate for those individuals affected but women should not be obliged to give up their dreams to make them feel better.

"What was it that actually changed about this athlete's situation?"

I believe that the boxer in question started boxing in 2018 and was therefore still new and inexperienced when covid hit. Then after lock downs and competitions resumed, questions did indeed start being asked. Because that boxer was then older, had finished puberty and coaches and competitors were reporting just how hard those punches were.

That is why the testing was done.

"She was banned in 2023 by the Russian-led international boxing federation for allegedly failing an unspecified gender test."

This is really very weak. It is using guilt by association to somehow discredit the statements made by the IBA, the World Boxing Corporation and the European Boxing confederation.

The information presented, that the two boxers had XY chromosomes and male pubertal advantage have not been denied. Even by their official teams. That was the statements made by IBA and WBC.

Instead, language has been used to obfuscate the issue. They have been described as 'female' but not declared in public statements to have XX chromosomes. Khelif even went and got a Paris Endocrinologist's second opinion. Khelif's coach declared that this doctor declared that the chromosomes were not 'female'.

"There is no specific evidence of XY chromosomes that has actually been published and much of the 'information' about this boxer is rumour and speculation."

There is not going to be any published either unless a case goes to CAS or another court and the medical records are made public. Because there is no legal way for any organisation to demand the records are made public. That is for the athlete's to authorise. And they refused.

However, what has been noted now by three medical doctors who have seen various results is that Khelif does not have XX chromosomes AND has a body that responds to testosterone.

How do we know that Khelif's body responds to testosterone, apart from the obvious body cues? Because one of Khelif's team, who was then not countered at all, said that Khelif was now suppressing testosterone! And a body that doesn't process testosterone doesn't respond to testosterone suppression.

You can declare all you want that it is all 'rumour and speculation' but the inferences can be made from the information that is known. And what has not been directly stated as being false. And those inferences, are also not be directly stated as being false. Why is that?

Instead, we have official statements that repeat that someone has a female birthcertificate or passport, that someone grew up as a female person, and that someone doesn't consider themselves male. Never has there been an official statement that Khelif has XX chromosomes and has natural testosterone levels below 5 nmol/L.

🤣🤣🤣

Once again, this the Paralympics so you mean the IPC not the IOC, and it's the individual sports' governing bodies which allow (or don't allow) this, which in this case is World Para Athletics, NOT the IPC.

Yes. You are right. It is the IPC. I wonder if they take their lead from the IOC or are fully detached with no expectation that they follow the IOC policies at all. Do you happen to know?