Did women used to enjoy being catcalled?

[Gofastboatsmojito]

Hi,

Filtering a recent discussion with my stepmum I just wanted to survey the 55+ year olds of mumsnet to check whether I'm way off.

She is absolutely insistent that in her youth women (most? all?) enjoyed being whistled or shouted appreciatively at when waking past a building site.

She thinks women's perception of this has changed in the last 20 years. All her friends enjoyed it in the 70s and 80s apparently.

For context she has been the subject of male violence including sexual violence and does not equate the two.

I find it hard to believe everyone enjoyed it and assume that women felt a lot less able to say they didn't like it due to fear of being called frigid, uptight etc.

I'm sure the answer might lie somewhere between the two extremes but just wondering what an AIBU poll might say.

V grateful if women of age 55+ only vote

YABU = in my youth the majority of women I knew considered a wolf whistle as a cheeky but welcome compliment

YANBU = I didn't enjoy this even in the 70s

Istr that (as with all things) there were different situations - if you came down after getting ready for a night out and a male in your house (related or not) whistled you, that was actually a compliment - but if builders or someone in a car did it, whilst it was still technically a positive rather than negative comment at face value it was more intrusive/unwelcome.

I think the public form was generally seen as cheeky/not good manners/a bit uncouth more than as an actual form of sexual harassment, though - on the grounds that it was expressing their own opinion/reaction to seeing the woman rather than approaching/touching her (the location of the boundary of what is an attack has changed over time to include verbal comments a lot more readily).

I’m very ancient, so maybe I’m allowed to say that as a very slim teen/young woman, with long blonde hair, I had no objection to what we used to call wolf whistles. Personally I never found them intimidating.

Unlike - I have to say - what I experienced while a bit later living in a Mediterranean country - no wolf whistles, but while I was walking, blokes on bicycles trying to put their hands up my skirt or grab my bottom as they cycled very slowly past!

I am 66. I don't remember feeling offended, it didn't occur to me. I always thought it harmless. But this was an era where we were groped routinely and so in comparison it certainly was more harmless.
I also remember reaching an age when the woolf whistles stopped (for me) and that was a kind of aging milestone.

I did.

My husband used to get catcalled by women too.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER a friend and I went to Italy aged 18. We were very slim teen/young women, with long blonde hair, men would grope us just as we walked down a street. We thought we were streetwise and grown up and just slapped their hands but it was gross.

Yep! 'Ladies!' 😖

It's pretty much always a man when someone talks about women and girls and says 'ladies.......'

You were groped routinely and didn't think anything of it?

That's really sad.

56 and always loathed it, from the age of 12 or 13 you were in dread of any man you walked past as he might feel he had the right to comment, could be a whistle, kiss noise, “hello gorgeous”, could be “ugly bitch”, didn’t matter. These days I am invisible and I can’t remember the last time I had to tell anyone to go fuck themself.

God that’s awful that your mum saw it as something to be proud of. Sorry but what a poor example to set to a young woman.

my boss at my caring job put his hand on my bottom 25 years ago
i remember i completely ignored it and hope that shamed him!

BeatrizBoniface · Today 08:22

I am 65 and the 70s were a horrible time for this. We were always told it was a compliment. Told to smile, told to laugh it off. The practise was widespread and socially acceptable.

Older women would sometimes say "just smile and he'll leave you alone". I think they were warning against escalation to aggression and assault.

@Davros

I'm 64. This sums it up for me. If I think back I can feel quite traumatised. The insidious day-to-day groping and objectification all the way to rape

Yes to all of this. ^ I had SO much sexual harassment (and more) in my teens, 20s, and 30s (and early 40s!) from entitled, pervy, lecherous men. From cat-calling and hitting on me, to staring, groping, following me home, and worse (not gonna go into this.)

The way some people minimise this shit, and make out it's 'flattering' and that women should be grateful, and happy and smiley, makes me sick to my stomach. I pray they don't have daughters!

I am 30 but I did want to add my thoughts as I think they are relevant to the flattering/unflattering conversation.

I think you can be both flattered that you have been noticed for your looks, on both a natural human level and because women are so socialised to find how attractive they are extremely important, and aware and therefore wary, frightened, pissed off etc that men approach you.

there are 2 elements of this for me; one is that some men give you "attention" that is right off the bat delivered in a way that is intimidating, creepy, offputting or misogynistic. The second as that even with men who you find attractive or are being nice, the slightest hint of going along with it, reciprocating (even bloody making eye contact sometimes) can result in something that is way too strong, even intimidating.

Like most women I have experienced varying degrees of this all throughout my life. I have learned that I can engage in a safe way of my partner is there, with things like those cringe comments about lucky you etc, or else otherwise I make myself as unapproachable as possible, including wearing earphones, and I have even developed this weird tic where if I am walking past a guy who looks like he is trying to make eye contact or speak to ke, I do this weird unattractive sniff thing and look away 😂

It is sad and I have been approached by some genuinely really nice men, some that did intimidate me but I'm sure didn't mean to, and plenty of awful ones. I am sure that is the experience of most women .

I expected it, & it was harmless.

Edited to make it clear it was the wolf whistles & cat-calling - nothing more.

Late 70s/80s/90s Random men shouting lewd comments or just silently staring at you as you walked past them always felt predatory. They were in a group and because you were alone. It made you feel like exposed and very vulnerable. They got off on your fear. What stands out it is that none of those men ever reined in their ‘pack’ or told them to stop. They had mums, most probably had partners and even daughters the same age as us. Didn’t stop them joining in though.
Anyone remember the ‘give us a smile, love’ brigade? The ones fooling themselves that they weren’t hassling you because they were ‘being nice and just trying to cheer you up’? You’d be doing something completely normal and minding your own business. Then some arsehole would be in your face demanding that you smile at them. Even if you ignored them they wouldn’t let up. You’d always get a load of verbal (and very personal) abuse from them as you tried not to dissolve in a puddle of humiliation and get away from them.
And no one ever stepped in to see if you were okay or tried to intervene.
From being a scared/battered kid (DV) at ‘home’ to being victimised on the streets for being female, for a long time nowhere felt safe.

That is one of the blessings of getting older (I am late 50s now.) You don't have pervy lecherous entitled men staring at you, letching at you, hitting on you, and groping you, (and insulting you - or even worse - attacking you) if you reject them.

I was too ‘polite’ to retaliate at all! My DD’s would certainly have had a go at them!
But it was a whole different era. In my first term at uni (late 60s) my first tutorial in a minor subject was with a young male lecturer with a mid-Atlantic accent, who evidently fancied himself rotten.
‘Your essay was fine - I’ve given you a B. Now, how’s your sex life?’ 😱

It never even occurred to me to report him - I just said, in polite enough, but what I hoped were off-putting tones, ‘Fine, thank you.’

Aged 12 I was standing at a bus stop, I stretched and a voice yelled 'nice tits'.

No.

Loathed it.

Wait until you're over 65 and are invisible!

I agree with everything you've said here.

Particularly this - the slightest hint of going along with it, reciprocating (even bloody making eye contact sometimes) can result in something that is way too strong, even intimidating

I'm 57, always thought it was beyond creepy. And always thought there was something lacking in a man if he thought it was okay.
That anyone would be flattered, is a bit weird.

I'm 70 - no it never bothered me. I worked in the city and had to walk past construction sites every day , the workers would whistle or call out "hello darling" or whatever, but I never felt intimidated. It was just part of life in those days.

You misread my post, I never said I didn't think anything of being groped!

I was too ‘polite’ to retaliate at all! My DD’s would certainly have had a go at them!

This is the critical part for me. It’s your inability to retaliate or just to have any identity or needs at all in the “transaction” of being catcalled which I hated.

You were just expected to be a blank canvas for men to impose their sex drives on without any response or engagement from you. Any kind of response other than a giggle or a shy smile was seen as “unfeminine”.

It’s a perspective on women that they only exist for the male gaze.

Loved it. I remember in the office where I worked (Central Government 1980s) being told to “just sit and look nice”