To call out friend on 'body positivity' delusion?

[treesandflowers95]

My bestie (i'll call her 'J') and I have been friends since primary school. She's godmother to my DD and we almost see each other as sisters as friends.

J has always been a curvier girl but as we've gone through our 20s, she's steadily put on more and more weight. She's 5ft 2 and now a size 30. Over the last couple of years its been noticeable how much into the 'body positivity' movement shes got. Her socials are full of shared posts about it, and she'll often bring it up in conversation.

Its not something i've ever really made an issue of with her before as though it worries me for her, i've always been of the view that everybody's body is their own business.

However we were on a hen do a few weeks ago, and honestly it was a real eye opener to just how big she's got and the impact that's starting to have on her health. The first one for me was that she needed a seatbelt extender on the flight and she seemed to think it was hilarious. We stayed in a villa on the edge of a little area with a strip of bars and restaurants. It was 350yds (i put it into Google maps) and slightly downhill on the way there and uphill on the way back, but nothing major. J was struggling to keep up with us on the way there, and on the way back was having to stop at least once because she was so out of breath. Bear in mind this was a group of girls quite a few in heels etc so its not like we were sprinting, and shes sweating and bright red. Aside from that, even basic stuff round the villa like walking upstairs (it was over 3 floors) and she struggled climbing up and down the ladders in and out of the pool. I didnt say anything to her at the time but its played on my mind.

This weekend there were four of us (all close friends) who'd been on the hen do out for drinks in the pub. We were talking about the hen do and i can't remember how it came up, but she started talking about the walk back to the villa and how steep the hill was etc. I said to her something along the lines of 'Oh it wasn't that bad' to which she replied 'Are you joking, it was so steep!' and was basically trying to get the other girls to agree and I just left it.

A bit later in the conversation she was talking about some body positivity stuff and how its about how you look after yourself and not how much you weigh. I've bit my tongue at stuff like this loads of times, but this time i said 'I think that's true to an extent but there's a point where you can't argue that you're healthy'. She didn't look happy and said 'what are you saying?'. I basically said that the fact she thought that walk on holiday was so difficult that she should have struggled with it so much was worrying, and might suggest her health wasn't as good as she seems to think it is. The reality is (and I didn't say this to her) that she eats really badly and drinks quite a lot. She spends loads on hair, make up, nails, etc which she considers as looking after herself.

She got really frosty with me, and has been funny in texts since, not her usual self, so i know i've annoyed her.

Fully accept it may not have been the best way to bring it up especially in front of others (but it wasnt like it was strangers, we're all mates back to primary school) but i just felt like it wasn't a time where i could just say nothing in the moment.

So i guess question is AIBU to have brought this up with her, and any advice on how to handle things next.

I agree that the pp's friends must be unusually affected by her weight. Maybe she's v short, maybe she has some form of lipedema and it's all settled in her legs, who knows. I admit I'm just speculating with little evidence :)

I'm very glad you're able to take long walks, I should follow your good example, I haven't been as active as I'd like recently! I'm sorry you got bad news from your doctor. If you'd ever like me to share what helped me when I decided to lose weight, please don't hesitate to pm me.

@Sugarcoldturkey Possibly a little bit more utilised, but more likely they have just built up more stamina ? People have the same amount of muscles in their bodies if they are fat or slim, very fat people tend to have larger big leg and buttock muscles than their sedentary slim counter parts simply because they are weightlifting more often if that makes sense ?

You're still not understanding me. I am not talking about thin people at all. Thin people and their muscles are completely irrelevant to my post.

If the sister’s knees need replacing, that would severely restrict her mobility. My elderly Dad should’ve had his knees replaced years ago but refused so now he needs a walker and someone around when he showers as his balance can go anytime.

@Sugarcoldturkey I am honestly not trying to misrepresent what you say, I just know that people of all sizes have the same number of muscles, we don't grow new ones. But morbidly obese people do tend to have larger leg and buttock muscles because we need them to move the excess weight around on a daily basis.

I don’t think @Sugarcoldturkey is disagreeing with you!

She’s saying that morbidly obese people who exercise will have more muscle than morbidly obese people who don’t exercise. Therefore two people the same weight could look different and have different physical abilities.

Thanks, that's exactly what I meant :)

And @Dymaxion , when I say "more muscle" I don't mean more individual muscles. I just mean bigger/stronger muscles.

It is really nice seeing a lot of people who really do practice the value of body positivity as it was intended. Caring for yourself overall is the crux of it and like many have said, caring for yourself at any size and valuing your body and health is important. I have been obese most of my adult life, I am no longer overweight or obese but on my journey to find good health for myself I came across a lot of alarming body positivity as I had previously posted and it really worried me. I did not hate my body but I felt it was not the body that was serving me well. I felt I did not have the level of health I believe I will need during middle age and beyond. I came to that conclusion by looking at my relatives - I will be predisposed to similar things they are experiencing and much of it was related to being obese and unfit,

I do not judge fat people for being fat, and I do believe you can attain a level of health whilst obese that is offset by preserving your mental health - others have used dieting as an example, if it’s triggering to your mental health people may focus on movement and good nourishment rather than counting calories and care for themselves that way. I don’t think thin = automatically healthy either, that’s a myth. You can be thin and have barely any muscle mass and I know people who are thin and weak and will end up frail as they age.

It’s the denial I can’t buy into. The negative side of body positivity is denying any links with obesity and health, actively discouraging anyone from losing weight or changing themselves for health reasons. Promoting that restricting intake of food is dangerous - not everyone is triggered by reducing intake of calories (some are, some find it useful) and a lot of anger towards non fat people that everyone who is slimmer or has lost weight has some kind of ED and can’t possibly be happy, and happiness is only to be found in intuitive eating excessive calories. I myself found myself binge eating which did not make me happy at all. I am happier now I am no longer binge eating.

The 90’s was awful for me too, as a naturally bigger framed person so I understand why a lot of women just don’t want to be part of ‘diet culture’ but you need to work out how to take care of yourself without becoming harmed by diet culture or the toxic side of body positivity movement

They even have a term for the different levels of obesity...

infinifat is one... and guess what the fattest is referred to? death fat.

Genuinely don’t think anyone can be happy and confident in their body as an obese person, they’re delusional and trying to convince themselves if they think they are.

YANBU to be concerned for her health, size 30 is way too big for anyone but at 5 foot 2, I can’t even imagine how big that would be.

I think some people genuinely are happy and confident in their body, @Sartre. I also think that society is so contemptuous of overweight people, that if we don't support or encourage ourselves to believe we are worth while, then no-one will - and this could explain why people are acting as if they are happy and confident, but are hurt and self-hating inside.

Your post comes across as saying that overweight people don't deserve to like/value themselves.

You are a good friend..I think you were quite tactful in the way you said it to her. Enablers are not good friends, sometimes we just need someone that tells it how it is.

I think you can be to a point. I didn’t hate being a size 14-16 for many years I felt good but I didn’t like being a 16-18+ as at that point I started to notice problems. there may be where you do find yourself restricted from some things or struggling with other things and you might then want to change your situation. Everyone should be open to changing parts of their lives throughout their lives and not stuck in rigid thinking. I think what a lot of people are feeling bothered about is denial of obesity increasing health risks and that it can affect your quality (and length) of your life and that we aren’t allowed to say anything about health because it’s offending someone’s idea of how healthy they are when it’s obvious it’s a poor health and you love them and worry about them. Loving your body and accepting it doesn’t mean just throwing Jesus the wheel and giving up on any effort to provide a good life for yourself.

My DP is a good example that his entire family has type 2 diabetes and not only have some died from it but others are blind and disabled and he has realised he has to reduce his risks by losing some weight. He will not be thin, he has no intention of seeking something unrealistic, he is just lowering his risk. He is happy to be a generally larger guy, and I also think it suits him but within the limits of his health so he has reduced his waist size through healthy eating. Nothing drastic. I had a HBA1C of 42 and now it’s 33, so my risk has also reduced

And how could a friendship based on dishonesty - propping up someone's dangerous delusion - be of any value to either side?

I'd not be able to go along with the fantasy. I wouldn't fat-shame or make unkind or critical comments, or even tell my friend how she should be living her life.

But I couldn't participate in a wrong-headed delusion. That wouldn't be respectful, in the long-term. It would be patronising and infantilising, not to mention downright dangerous.

I don't know if this relates to the same thing but my leg and glute muscles can move more weight. Doing squats, leg presses and so on is very much easier, I can leg press 80+ kg BUT when I do shoulder presses (which I'm not comfortable with at all), I'm still on 15kg.

My trainer explains this that my leg/glute muscles are weight-bearing so very used to it and that's where the muscles are more developed.

Keeping moving is the important thing, whatever weight/build you are and kudos to every woman doing that.

Exactly. I would never, ever in a million years comment on anyone's weight or go on about it whatsoever. It's absolutely none of my business how much anyone weighs and I'd never bring the topic up.

However, I wouldnt just meekly agree if someone told me that being morbidly obese was fine and no problem at all for health because I dont agree with that. I wouldnt make a big deal of it obvs but if they flat out asked me (which is what happened to OP) then no, I wouldnt agree because it's simply not true. In the same vein, I wouldnt tell a smoker that smoking 40 a day was fine for someone's health if they specifically asked me for my opinion.

If you dont want to actually hear people's opinions on certain topics then dont ask for them in the first place. That applies to all of us, no matter what the topic is.

YANBU.

It's difficult because of course, weight, like a lot of things, is a sensitive subject and no matter how much people try and coddle themselves with body positivity (re: delusion) that's only going to get them so far.

I hate the body positivity/fat acceptance movement because it's like a cult. It teaches people, who are often vulnerable, that you can be healthy at any size when this just isn't the case. We've seen numerous "fat acceptance influencers" pass away this year alone before they even hit 40 of obesity-related complications and still the movement continues to delude and coddle people from reality.

As a general rule, I would make it a point to not raise concerns in front of others as that will just leave the person feeling embarrassed and humiliated. I know that wasn't your intention-and you're absolutely right to be concerned and to express them to her.

The thing is-many people will say that she knows she's fat etc-that's not necessarily the case. She'll likely know she's big-however, many people delude themselves into avoiding just how big they are and how big of a problem that is. This is because we never look at ourselves clearly and objectively. We become so used to seeing ourselves that it becomes normal and we can delude ourselves based on that that the problem isn't as bad as it truly is.

I know, for example, my DM does exactly this. She's classified as obese medically but whenever she sees someone big on the TV she always comments and goes, "Eeeh, look how big they are!" and I'm just left, sat there, thinking does she not know that she's the same size or bigger? That's not me being nasty-I'm just using it to illustrate how many people don't see themselves clearly.

You're not obligated to participate or agree with her delusions. I understand why people turn to body positivity-when you're feeling low-it's nice to have something reassuring and accepting to offer you a boost-the trouble is, it goes beyond "love yourself as you are," and into "You can be healthy at any size." Of course, the people that push the health at any size mantra for obese people (often morbidly obese)-don't apply it to people clinically underweight and seem to understand the negative health ramifications of being underweight.

I don't think you're going to be able to get through to her because this is something she's either going to realise herself either just through a natural reckoning or through some kind of medical incident that will jolt her awake. It's such a tricky thing because it's hard to watch someone that you care about doing something that you know is putting their health and life in jeopardy.

I dont know. Otherwise she is smell. Cant even reach her foot to wash it. She is my step sister not my friend and i hate her for making my mom take care for her. Urgh.

Thank you for this posts, i agree with so much of it. I think youre right in saying that she obviously realises she's big but not as big as she really is and the impact thats having on her. She makes comments referring to her size, and sometimes about others, that clearly comes across as her not seeing/thinking she's as big as she is these days.

No real update on anything so far, other than i did message her last night saying i'm taking DD to the park on Friday and would love her to join us if shes free during her lunch break, she just said shes not sure whether she'll make it yet.

As I get older I find (and I'm not obese) getting in and out of baths and showers more challenging, so this is sure to become a serious problem for very obese people as they age - and very difficult for people to help them.

Also - spare a thought for the medics who may have to lift very heavy people, or turn them in bed. I can imagine how difficult it might be to lose a lot of weight (yes, I can!) but it's always worth it.

I knew someone in this situation and they decided to go for it. They put themselves through hell for a month, and the weight they lost in that time was substantial and inspired them to continue - so that their motivation increased with time, rather than the other way round. If you're very overweight, you do tend to lose a lot of weight more quickly than people like me who are always about 10 pounds too heavy. It will be horrible for a month or so, but wow, the rewards my friend got were worth it.

It is perfectly possible to be very overweight and still maintain hygiene. I am paranoid about being smelly - I grew up in the 70s, and we only had two baths a week (because of the cost of running the hot water heater), and I had to use the bathwater after my sister too. Plus mum didn't want to do loads of laundry because all she had was a single tub washer and a spin dryer, and as it was, the laundry took her a whole morning of physical effort - but that meant only two clean school shirts a week. Then puberty and BO arrived, but we weren't given any antiperspirant. Add all that together, and I am sure I honked, all through secondary school, and my hair was greasier than a chip pan. I hated it, and was so conscious of feeling dirty.

As a result, I am, as I said, paranoid about the possibility that I might smell - especially as the long covid means that I can't stand for long enough to have a shower every day. On bad days, though, I have a good sit-down wash, and wash my hair, and I use a good antiperspirant plus a nice perfume, so I know I am always sweet smelling and hygienic - so I know it is not impossible.

Blimey, I think that says more about you than it does about us. I'm neutral about my fat body. It is what it is.

I am happy and confident because I dress well, I have nice hair, I eat fresh and nutritious meals, I am strong, I can walk a long way and I feel energetic.

Confidence is not just about physical size or appearance.

He's aligned with Health At Every Size, this video about Tess Holliday and Health At Every Size is eye opening. They aren't following the science, it's more about fat activism than health.

I'm torn about body positivity, it's good to be happy with your body, on the other hand, I know from being overweight/within BMI at different times that being overweight does affect my health, and that's more important than aesthetics.

When I was overweight for a couple of years of my early 20s then overweight again in my mid 30s I noticed I felt and looked a lot worse the second time. I was carrying the weight a lot better in my early 20s. It sat on my face and stomach a lot more in my 30s and my joints began to hurt.

I think bloodwork etc will often come back fine when you’re younger but as you age it will become a lot more difficult to be healthy and significantly overweight.

I did have a former flatmate who was extremely large and also body positive. She had a great sense of style and I used to love seeing her post her new looks, but she went off the grid for a while in her early 30s.

When she reappeared on social media it seemed she had been very unwell although she wouldn’t disclose what exactly . It could’ve been anything but now looking back at it I suspect it was weight related.

I think you may find she will often be busy or otherwise unavailable in the future.