To think some people, especially in the past, don't see children as people with any autonomy?

[Lovebeingwithyou]

It was another thread that got me thinking.

But so many times I see on here and in real life grandparents who see their grandchildren as a do over of their own parenting. They want a turn with the baby/child, sometimes with no regard to what's best for the child.

Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying this about all grandparents. Most are very loving and very supportive. Also I'm not just talking about grandparents, but also more dated styles of parenting too.

Things like expecting newborn babies to simply fall into a routine that suits the parents. They can't be hungry or have a full happy do why are they crying? No acknowledgment that this tiny human might just need to be near their mum or dad and need to be cuddled/fed on demand.

Forcing children to eat disgusting cold meals that they don't like and refusing to let them leave the table.

Not understanding that it's normal for toddlers and young children to sometimes have tantrums and that snacking/shouting and screaming back won't teach them anything.

I could give many more examples. Thankfully there is much more understanding of child development these days but I do still see hear of these sorts of ideas.

I totally agree with this. It is still common, even now. And it's horrible really.
As a mother, I see my child as an extension of myself when it comes to doing things, eating things, experiencing things.
I think, if I wouldn't eat it, my child shouldn't have to if they don't want to.
If I wouldn't like something, why would I make my child do the same.
If something makes me uncomfortable, why would I subject my child to the same?
But many people do not think this way sadly.
I think our society today isn't very child friendly honestly.

Completely disagree. When I was growing up, your needs were secondary to adults, you got a clip round the ear for cheek and you did what you were told. Children respected adults.

Now I see parents who don't want to traumatise their children with boundaries. Never say no. Take second place to their children and pathologies everything.

Grew up in the 70’s so children came secondary to adults, were seen and definitely not heard, had no opinions worth expressing and were a nuisance to all. (Horrible)

There was a thread some years ago about a swimming pool, children’s swimming lessons.
The seating to observe the lesson were very limited, not enough. A parent and child took up 2 chairs but the child didn’t use their seat. Was up and down, on the parents knee etc.
Another adult asked the mother if the chair was free as they had a disability and needed to sit.
The parent refused, stating that it was the child’s seat.

The conversation that followed was very mixed, some arguing that the child had as much right as any adult to a seat, others horrified that a child’s needs were taken above an adult, let alone a disabled adult.
I wondered if there was a generational difference to those participating in the debate.
A 70’s & 80’s person might say adult before child, younger might see child rights as being the most important.
It’s so interesting.

I agree with this! I talk to kids just like I would talk to another adult, minus the swearing! They are humans with their own thoughts and feelings and should be listened to. I hate this ‘because I said so!’ Attitude. It’s fine to have rules and boundaries, but tell them why you have them.

I have a great relationship with my niece because I respect her and she respects me as a result. I still let her know when she has misbehaved and she doesn’t get away with things, but because there is mutual respect, she is more likely to listen to me when I do shout. Her mum, on the other hand, frequently loses her cool and over reacts to things with the ‘do as I say!’ demanding attitude and it doesn’t help at all and mum always asks me how I manage to calm her down so easily etc

I know the relationship is different, but all a demanding parent did to me as a kid is lead to resentment. When you grow up, you realise that adults don’t, in fact, know best 🤣

I agree that while those examples aren't good I don't think we've got it right either. Sometimes you do have to make decisions for children and enforce those decisions.

I also think a lot of people simply don't have accurate memories of when their children were young. My own in-laws are always claiming their kids always fitted in with what they wanted to do and didn't complain, I'm not convinced.

and how many issues do you have?

I absolutely agree, while saying the child isn’t more important than other people either. So it’s a balance of needs. The child can manage without a seat by sharing with the adult and just being generally fitter. The disabled person can’t.

The key thing for me is not to expect the child to behave better than an adult in a similar situation.
If you don’t want the child to interrupt, allow them the space to join in. If you don’t want to be interrupted, don’t interrupt others.

I agree with you but the pushback against this has swung too far the other way

I remember reading an instagram thread where a little girl who was a preschooler (2-3ish) didn’t want to put her thrush cream on because her mother had taught her ‘it’s your body and you decide who touches it’ and the mother was asking for advice on how you navigate this. Cue 100s of people commending her and saying that the girl was old enough to apply the cream herself if she could repeat communicate so eloquently. Absolutely no way I would trust my three year old to apply a prescription cream correctly and I doubt any would apply it internally like they needed to.

Can say the above for teeth brushing. A lot of our dental crisis is due to poverty and lack of NHS dentists, sure. But I have also met cavity ridden middle class kids whose parents didn’t want to force them to brush to ‘make a big deal out of it’ or give them negative feelings about dental hygiene.

very young children shouldn’t have autonomy over health and hygiene but I have met a lot of well meaning parents who believe respecting their kids means letting this thing slide. It’s bizarre.

Why is there currently a children's mental health crisis?

For many reasons, but as a child brought up by a child of the 60s, she wasn’t the best - impatient and emotionally unavailable, always thought the grown up was right and kids don’t know anything. I’ve suffered with my MH since my teenage years. I have no doubt this played a part. There isn’t anything wrong with treating kids like the human being that they are while also having firm boundaries in place, it isn’t one or the other. Are you in favour of physical punishment? I also got smacked as well, as did many children of my generation. It was normal at the time but thinking back, it’s barbaric.

I agree that the pendulum has swung too far the other way.
Yes of course babies are hungry, wet, tired etc when they are, but we now expect mothers to sacrifice themselves entirely to attachment parenting, often at significant cost to their own mental health, and I don't think that's right either.

I don't think children should be force fed food they hate but I'm not a short order chef, I'll cook one meal and if they don't like that toast is fine.

Smacking is never okay but I think it is okay to acknowledge that young children can push us to our absolute limits and shouting on occasion actually doesn't traumatise them for life.

There's a balance between the child's needs and the parent's needs, parents are allowed to have needs too (and indeed when it comes to work, don't always have a choice).

I do. I've got two. I've got one is at college and one that is still at primary school.

So I certainly feel I've got the benefit of experience and reflection.

I agree. The balance has shifted too far on the other direction in some cases.
Children need boundaries and they need adults to make decisions for them. We give our kids too many choices and expect them to make the right ones all the time. We allow them to give up and walk away and spend so much energy trying to ensure that they’re never unhappy or in discomfort. Too many of our children have no resilience or sense of responsibility.
Life is full of things we don’t really want to do or that can difficult and upsetting.

No, I don't believe in physically chastising anyone, let alone defenceless children. We had corporal punishment at school, our teachers were very handy with slippers, metre rules and their hands. I'm glad those days are gone.

I believe that children need clear consistent boundaries and consequences for poor behaviour.

"Seeing your child as an extension of yourself" is commonly associated with narcissism.

I don't think it's generational and is down to bad parenting/grand parenting.

The Quakers back in the 17th century understood that children had a spark from God the same as adults. They were the original gentle parents!

They did a lot for women’s rights and abolition. They influenced the United state’s constitutional thinking in all the best ways!

I'm not talking about saying no to children, or non negotiable parenting like tooth brushing, school work and basic safety or consideration of others.

I've always been perfectly able to say 'no'.

I'm talking about the sort of people who say you're 'spoiling' a newborn baby by holding them too much. Or people who can't comprehend that certain tastes and textures might make a child gag and forcing them to stay at the table until they've eaten everything is cruel and unnecessary.

Yes, they do. But that doesn’t negate the fact that they are human beings who deserve respect and autonomy just like every other person on the planet. They need to be punished and guided by adults where necessary, but it’s a balance. Too many parents are either too lax or too harsh.

Middle ground, that what's needed. Children should be allowed to be children but that doesn't mean they should always be allowed to do whatever they like.

I agree with others about middle ground. For example I think OPs mention of routines that fit the parents makes people think that routines = bad for child, respond to child/feed on demand = good for child as if there is no cross over. It frustrates me that this trope is said or implied over and over again. 3 out of 4 of mine were routine babies from the start after a very chaotic time with child 1, and they all absolutely thrived - well rested, well fed, well cuddled, well entertained, and so seldom cried, and no I don’t believe I was just lucky, it’s anticipating a child’s needs rather than responding to them.

Apart from that yes I completely agree in being very respectful to children.

I found out my MIL was talking to my twins like they were dogs when she was giving them meals. Shouting ‘No! Naughty!’ At them for dropping food off the high chair.

Called us helicopter parents and that they’d never learn to stop without being told off.

They were 10m old with no concept of being ‘naughty’. She just didn’t want to clean it up.

She no longer looks after them, can confirm they are 17m old now and no longer drop food off the high chair, no shouting needed.

is it generational or is it just people specific? To this day she doesn’t see them as people with feelings.

The thing is, it is a parent’s job to socialise children properly, so they can integrate properly with society. This involves things like considering the feelings of others (if they have gone to the effort to provide food, you should be appreciative, if you eat with others, you should be aware that it is disruptive as unsociable to get up and leave the table while others are eating), learning how to converse (sitting at a table together talking is a great way for people to catch up with each other and learn how to listen, speak, not interrupt, etc)…

Also, children don’t know what is best for them, and learning to trust that their parents have their best interests at heart helps them to feel secure. It’s better to say “We are going swimming today and then soft play”, rather than asking them what they’d like to do, because they don’t realise that they’ll be in the mood to do something later that they are not in the mood to do now. It’s the parent’s job to plan the lives of their children to enrich and equip them for adulthood as best as they can - predicting, forecasting, anticipating, preparing, adapting, in a way a child is simply unable to do.

I think what I mean may have been misconstrued.

I've never allowed my children to just do whatever they liked. The opposite, I'd probably be considered quite a strict parent.

But I do think I'm able to reflect on my own experience of parenting

There's a lot of judgment and bad advice aimed at parents of young children especially such as if you pick your baby up or co-sleep they'll never be independent, or if they're not doing things like walking, talking or potty training by a certain time you've done something wrong,

A lot of scaremongering.

That's called good parenting and unfortunately you don't see a lot of it around. What you do see are little prince and princesses given free reign where their wants are paramount.

A lot of it's neglectful eg giving them smartphones with no safeguarding, letting them game all day, feeding them whatever they want, letting them dress how they like, letting the household revolve around their demands.

There doesn't seem to be any discipline or any consideration for others. Teachers are leaving in their droves because of feral brats. There is a children's mental health and obesity crisis so something is going very wrong.