To think some people, especially in the past, don't see children as people with any autonomy?

[Lovebeingwithyou]

It was another thread that got me thinking.

But so many times I see on here and in real life grandparents who see their grandchildren as a do over of their own parenting. They want a turn with the baby/child, sometimes with no regard to what's best for the child.

Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying this about all grandparents. Most are very loving and very supportive. Also I'm not just talking about grandparents, but also more dated styles of parenting too.

Things like expecting newborn babies to simply fall into a routine that suits the parents. They can't be hungry or have a full happy do why are they crying? No acknowledgment that this tiny human might just need to be near their mum or dad and need to be cuddled/fed on demand.

Forcing children to eat disgusting cold meals that they don't like and refusing to let them leave the table.

Not understanding that it's normal for toddlers and young children to sometimes have tantrums and that snacking/shouting and screaming back won't teach them anything.

I could give many more examples. Thankfully there is much more understanding of child development these days but I do still see hear of these sorts of ideas.

There are mental health crises in every generation. I know exactly why my mother parented me as she did, it was generational, she parented me as her mother did her. She has many emotional problems as a result and so do I. Things just weren’t spoken about years ago. There needs to be far more awareness of good parenting practices than there is. I think this generation’s parents are becoming too lazy, but that’s a reflection of modern society in general, everyone’s lazier. In the past, people were too harsh. Swings and roundabouts.

@cupcaske123 there is a flipping adult obesity crisis.

A quick google tells me that nearly 40% of adults are overweight. How can we expect children to be healthy when adults aren't?

All the adults who were forced to clear their plate in the 70s and 80s now gave food issues which they are passing on to their children.

I don't believe people were always too harsh. People were stricter and their lives didn't completely revolve around their children's whims.

There weren't so many children with mental health issues when I was growing up. Children were given more independence, were socialised, had more exercise and had firm boundaries.

We didn't have thousands of children of school because of anxiety and school avoidance. There was more resilience and less pampering.

I don't think it's necessarily a generational thing.

I was a child of the 60s/70s. My parents never smacked us or shouted at us but we still respected them. Mum only had to give us that certain look (even when we were adults!!). There were certainly times when I resented them, especially when I thought that I should be allowed to do something and they didn't. Looking back I can see that they were were probably right to make the decisions they did.

It is all about balance and I think there do seem to be some people who have gone from one extreme to the other. I also think that some children are not brought up to think about how their actions will affect others. More consideration and tolerance would go a long way to improving society. And I mean that in respect of adults as well as children.

More ageist rubbish. All of that could-and does-apply to some young parents as well.

Resilience isn’t built by a clip round the ear, resilience is built by having a proper support network and having your thoughts and feelings listened to, respected, and discussed. That doesn’t mean if a child wanted something you couldn’t afford or whatever you couldn’t say no, or if they misbehave you don’t punish, but you don’t clip them around the ear or whack them with a slipper either 🤣. I’d say people were definitely too harsh generations ago, just from anecdotes from people who are now in their 60s going on about how they were punished as kids and claiming it did them no harm. Trust me, it absolutely did! Most people aren’t very self aware 😃.

Yes and no.

Yes, children are individuals with autonomy and that should be respected to an extent.

However if left to their own devices, most children won't make good decisions about what to eat, what to wear, whether they go to school etc.

They won't learn decent manners or social rules.

They won't learn that their parents are humans with their own needs.

They won't learn that money has to be earned and there isn't an infinite supply of food, so sometimes you have to eat what you have, or that you can't have all the toys you want.

And so on...

I'm 70. That's how it was when I grew up

I didn't think it was like that now. (and I refused to make my children eat foods they didn't like)

I think that there have always been inconsiderate people.

Growing up in the 80s on a council estate, there were a lot of feral kids, a lot of graffiti, dog shit everywhere. Bullying was rife in schools. Racism was acceptable.

I don't recognise a lot of these descriptions of the past as being wholesome times where children were happy and respected their elders.

Having said that I haven't said that times are perfect now. They're not.

I'm talking more about people not understanding child development, especially with babies and toddlers.

The pendulum continues to swing, back and forth, each generation criticising the one before and the one after.

We've no idea how the permissive parenting is going to work out nor do we know what damage was wrought by the clip-round-the-ear generation, it's difficult to pinpoint and people are not a homogenous group but individuals.

Do your best as a parent and leave others to do the same.

Of course.
I'm 45, from another country.
My generation had it very tough.
Father long time dead, NC with mother (81).
No regrets.

Child development isn't a new thing either - children haven't changed, just the instructions, they never end. Lots of professed experts on the subject though, there always have been.

I didn't say that resilience was built by a clip round the ear, I said children were kept in check.

Resilience is built by allowing independence and problem solving not hours of navel gazing. Children aren't patients who need to sit down and discuss their feelings. They need firm boundaries.

If you read my posts,I've already said clearly that you shouldn't physically chastise children. However there should be consequences for poor behaviour, not unremitting diagnosis and gentle chats. The often dreadful behaviour of children is proof enough that many parents are getting it wrong.

I think with many things children should have autonomy but not with everything and not at the expense of boundaries and discipline which children do need in order for brain development (and should be adapted appropriately for any brain diversity) and become well rounded adults.

There are a lot of people on this site who don’t have kids, don’t understand kids, don’t particularly like kids, or mothers, but they do like to give their ill-informed, crappy “advice” to parents. I think they skew what seems to be the prevalent view and I don’t think you should pay them much attention.

There is absolutely a balance, and individual baby needs.

My MIL wanted us to stay at a house party with them at the weekend because "it's a bank holiday, the rules don't apply".

Except my son doesn't know it's a bank holiday, he just knows when a bunch of strangers are getting up in his face trying to hold him when he wants to play in the garden. He ended up clinging on to me, and he certainly didn't want to hang out there longer just because it was a bank holiday.

If there are rules, I don't make them. He does, and he doesn't always have the tolerance an adult might want of him for their own convenience.

Allowing independence and having someone to be able to talk to with issues, being respected etc. doesn’t that equal autonomy? That’s exactly what I’ve been saying. I’m not saying today's parents are better. You don’t need to molly coddle anyone, that does no one any favours, but neither do you need the ‘I know best!’ approach.

You said you had capital punishment as kids, and now kids today don’t respect parents. There was always little brats around, very poorly parented kids, there’s so many messed up adults now as a result of it, and there are will be again because too many are lazy and permissive now. Neither is better than the other. I’m talking about a middle ground. Equally, good parents have also always existed.

My mum grew up in the times when it was popular to give kids a clip round the ear. (1950s)

She remembers her childhood as absolutely awful and swore blind if she had kids she would make their childhood as far from hers as possible.

There's a middle way.

I'm not saying that the past was a wholesome time where everyone respected their elders. I was simply giving my own example of why I think differences are not necessarily generational. I knew plenty of kids who got smacked or shouted at.

The issues you refer to on an 80s council estate still exist today.

Child development theory is always changing. What may have been seen as acceptable previously is not today. What is acceptable today probably won't be in 20/30 years time.

Btw, I'm not against routines for babies if that's how it came across.

I had one routine baby and one that was the opposite.

What I am saying is that I needn't have worried about either of them. It hasn't made the slightest bit of difference.

But what does make a difference to the parents is all the guilt trips and making the parents feel that they've done something wrong to make your baby not sleep etc.

If you are referring to my post which is what this is in response to then I suggest that you don't make rude and incorrect assumptions about people. If this was a general comment then I agree.

But often parents do know best. Parents are adults and it's their responsibility to make decisions for the best, whether their children agree with it or not.

I didn't say capital punishment, I said corporal punishment. For the third time, I don't believe in physically chastising children.

I said children don't respect adults. Any adults. Children are calling their teachers names and parents aren't supporting teachers when it comes to discipline. Some parents expect schools to bring up their children for them but woe betide if you need to punish them for their behaviour.

Yes there have always been brats but they weren't tolerated. You got a clip round the ear and told off. We respected our teachers and wouldn't have dared answer back because we would have been punished at home.

“I'm talking about the sort of people who say you're 'spoiling' a newborn baby by holding them too much. Or people who can't comprehend that certain tastes and textures might make a child gag and forcing them to stay at the table until they've eaten everything is cruel and unnecessary.”

My parents’ generation really did think like this. My daughter’s parenting style is the polar opposite - baby led weaning, no demands to eat everything on the plate, happy holding baby, using baby sling, co-sleeping etc.
I was somewhere in the middle but I think my daughter is doing it much better than I did.

This plus having children was not a choice if you were married hence people were much more practical and matter of fact about children,you just had to get on with it, and a lot less sentimental.

Children can know what they like or dislike but this is not always what is best for them. It feels like lots of parents are terrified of upsetting their children and therefore don’t have high expectations. It’s one of the reasons why behaviour in schools has declined so rapidly.