To think some people, especially in the past, don't see children as people with any autonomy?

[Lovebeingwithyou]

It was another thread that got me thinking.

But so many times I see on here and in real life grandparents who see their grandchildren as a do over of their own parenting. They want a turn with the baby/child, sometimes with no regard to what's best for the child.

Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying this about all grandparents. Most are very loving and very supportive. Also I'm not just talking about grandparents, but also more dated styles of parenting too.

Things like expecting newborn babies to simply fall into a routine that suits the parents. They can't be hungry or have a full happy do why are they crying? No acknowledgment that this tiny human might just need to be near their mum or dad and need to be cuddled/fed on demand.

Forcing children to eat disgusting cold meals that they don't like and refusing to let them leave the table.

Not understanding that it's normal for toddlers and young children to sometimes have tantrums and that snacking/shouting and screaming back won't teach them anything.

I could give many more examples. Thankfully there is much more understanding of child development these days but I do still see hear of these sorts of ideas.

Why does punishment have to involve a clip round the ear though, there’s literally loads of options for punishment. There has ALWAYS been badly behaved kids, kids with unspoken about mental health problems, problems forming healthy relationships, social problems. Always. To say your generation was more respectful is bias, a lot of people were just shit scared of putting a foot wrong. Loads of adults I know now are reaping the consequences of their poor upbringing, and that will continue. I think today, screens don’t help.

When you set boundaries you need to explain your reasoning, not just do this, do that because I say! some-times you do need to take the lead and make decisions in the interests of a child, of course, but as I’ve grown up, I’ve realised the mistakes my parents made with being really demanding of us and trying to be over controlling without attempting to understand our wants and needs and why we were behaving a certain way. We all have MH issues. I’m not blaming them, that’s what they knew, but it does no good.

I thing many parents today don't view their 16 to 20 year olds as autonomous people. So far this week we've had two people talking about not letting their 17 year olds go on holiday, one talking about putting her child on a tablet to delay her period for a holiday (note - that was the title 'to put', not discuss options) and a mother telling the university what type of accommodation her daughter was to go into. And probably others.

So you expect your dc to have the same likes and dislikes as you?
Well that's pretty much exactly what the OP is on about. Not seeing dc as separate beings. Just an extension of you.

I see the whole "trans child" as failure to understand that children have very little understanding of complex things. They don't understand why they have to brush their teeth, but some parents leave the choice up to them or say the demand is too much for them. They don't understand that boys can't turn into girls but they see girls wearing frilly dresses and fancy that, and parents think they understand far more than they do, and let them make life altering decisions.

Kind of agree with this. I absolutely respected my parents and the way you see some kids now talk to their parents shocks me tbh. As you said, clip round the ear for cheek, I got it and it was a consequence that worked. Kids nowadays know that there isn't really a consequence that they're too worried about so act like little shits because they have no respect at all

Just a quick note on children having to eat all of their dinner regardless of if it tastes nice. I think most of us forget that food is incredibly cheap and has been for the last 40 or so years. In previous generations we had to eat what was available because letting children suffer malnutrition is far worse than insisting they eat perfectly healthy food they don't like the taste of. It took a generation or two for the "clear your plate" mentality to be broken. But if food ever becomes as expensive or scarce again as it was in my grandparents day they you can get your last pound that kids (and adults) would be forced to clear their plates.

As I said, I think a lot of people have misconstrued my pov.

I didn't mean children shouldn't have to brush their teeth, go to school or be expected to use manners and consideration towards others. These are all non negotiable that I've always instilled or tried my best to enforce.

But babies and children aren't robots, they will all learn and develop at different rates. So just because your baby isn't sleeping through or your toddler is clingy, or your 5 year old doesn't like certain foods. It does not mean that this will always be the case.

That's the sort of things I'm talking about.

That's a really good point.

My parents thankfully never forced me to clear my plate, and I've grown up to eat nearly anything and I've got a healthy attitude (I believe) towards food.

My dad was certainly from a generation of going to bed hungry though so I can see where it comes from.

I've seen people plate up huge meals for a small child and expect them to eat every bit. I do think that this is very cruel.

@Devilsmommy are you talking about respect or fear?

My dad and others like him could terrify us, but we certainly didn't respect him. No one can truly respect someone who uses violence.

There are consequences without using fear. Natural consequences and also removal of privileges.

Children will respect people who are good role models, calm, respectful themselves. That doesn't mean being a pushover. You also don't need your be hard faced.

There is definitely a middle ground between these extremes.

I didn't fear my parents at all. I had a healthy respect for them. Getting smacked wasn't a common occurrence, it was a last resort thing but I knew I'd done completely wrong if it happened. I'm not saying parents should smack their children now, I'm just saying that kids don't respect parents or adults at all these days. Though I don't know how that could be changed. Permissive parenting is creating a lot of shitty kids who will become shitty adults and it's just awful to see.

@Lovebeingwithyou

I agree - exMIL boasted to me that she never got up in the night to feed babies or attend to them if they cried. Her one aim in life was to keep a spotless house and cook an excellent dinner every evening. Nobody and nothing got in the way of that.

Kids have been allowed to rule the roost for years. Gentle parenting and their needs above all others.

We've ended up with properly feral teens who terrorise in gangs and have absolutely no respect for fuck all. Teachers with PTSD from trying to teach the little darlings.

It's gone too far the other way. Kids need to learn that not everything is going to be comfortable for them.

Disagree with this very much.

There were just as many children and young people with mental health issues but it just wasn’t talked about. No awareness at all. Today there is so much awareness. There were kids when I was growing up with drug addiction, eating disorders, tics, alcohol addiction, family problems but they had to put up and shut up. Those same people are now either deceased or are in dysfunctional relationships or have alcohol dependence. And in the generation prior to mine many were brought up by wartime parents who had plenty of trauma from not just wartime but also from being raised themselves by Victorian era parents. Alcohol dependence is rife in that generation now.

I agree that children were given more independence but this wasn’t necessarily the positive thing you’re making it out to be. Yes it meant a higher degree of independence at a young age but also meant many many young kids were exposed to things they should never have been exposed to. I include myself and my friends in that. That freedom was age-inappropriate.

With regards to school refusal, have you read all the threads on here about how bad the education system is today? Have you read all the threads about how teachers are leaving in droves due to the bullying by senior management and by the relentless stress and pressure from ofsted and the ridiculous amount of assessments etc? It’s not just dysfunctional for these adults is equally as dysfunctional for the students.

I agree with you OP. Children are people too and have just as much right to be treated with respect as adults.

Also there are texts from the Roman Empire complaining that young people aren't as respectful as they used to be so I normally view this type of comment with skepticism.

Children are people too and have just as much right to be treated with respect as adults.

Does this include when they're standing in nought but their pants and wellies, screaming their heads off because you won't let them wear green paint to go to the shops? Asking for a friend.

@MontagueMoo of course not and OP made very clear she wasn't saying it did.

You can treat people with respect whilst maintaining boundaries as to the sort of behavior you expect from them. We manage this in our relationships with difficult adults.

Do you think you can only raise polite respectful children if you clip them round the ear? I let my children share a bed with me until they didn’t want to anymore (DD was 12, DS 3), never forced them to eat food they didn’t like and never policed their internet / phone use or checked any messages. The result is two polite, high achieving kids who I really cannot remember when I had to last tell them off. DS turned 20 2wks ago and I didn’t have to tell him off once in his teenage years, not once. Anyone who meets my kids will describe them as polite and respectful, it’s not just my own view of them. I don’t know why people always have this view that you can only have that if you shout at your child and smack them.

I was making a tongue in cheek joke (albeit out of real, bitter experience), but sorry if it did not come off that way.

I agree, I went to school in the 80s / 90s and there were no end of issues with kids getting into trouble with drugs, other inappropriate stuff, being rude to teachers (2 of our teachers were badly assaulted by pupils) and we had one child in our school who committed suicide at age 12. So MH problems have always been there in some form.

There is a balance to be had, yes children are people but yes they also need boundaries.

I don’t think the “clip round the ear” for being disrespectful gains you respect at all, many people I know don’t have respect for their parent doing that. And the whole “seen and not heard” approach from way back isn’t about setting boundaries, it’s just about parents wanting more me time.

My view is you get your kids as children for 18 years in essence … so what are you wanting them to remember from that time.

I think there is a balance to be struck and I don't think we are there yet. Children seem more anxious, stressed and unhappy than ever. My parents certainly had firm boundaries with me but I was never in any doubt I was loved.

I wonder if giving children too much autonomy overwhelms them, sometimes they need the adults to make decisions for them so that they can feel safe that adults are in charge and nothing bad will happen to them.

I'm always intrigued by the recent past being portrayed as if it was centuries ago, particularly by people who didn't live through it. Children were not being sent up chimneys and fed on bread and water in the 1970's.

@@Teanbiscuits33

‘You said you had capital punishment as kids’

Wow , that is harsh.Surprising they survived, really.