To think some people, especially in the past, don't see children as people with any autonomy?

[Lovebeingwithyou]

It was another thread that got me thinking.

But so many times I see on here and in real life grandparents who see their grandchildren as a do over of their own parenting. They want a turn with the baby/child, sometimes with no regard to what's best for the child.

Before anyone jumps on me I'm not saying this about all grandparents. Most are very loving and very supportive. Also I'm not just talking about grandparents, but also more dated styles of parenting too.

Things like expecting newborn babies to simply fall into a routine that suits the parents. They can't be hungry or have a full happy do why are they crying? No acknowledgment that this tiny human might just need to be near their mum or dad and need to be cuddled/fed on demand.

Forcing children to eat disgusting cold meals that they don't like and refusing to let them leave the table.

Not understanding that it's normal for toddlers and young children to sometimes have tantrums and that snacking/shouting and screaming back won't teach them anything.

I could give many more examples. Thankfully there is much more understanding of child development these days but I do still see hear of these sorts of ideas.

@Lovebeingwithyou I agree with the points you have made about the things children should have autonomy about. I think the issue lies in the people who allow so much autonomy their lives and homes are ruled by children, rather than having the attitude that there needs to be appropriate give and take for everyone. It's those that are given the spotlight, not the average family who allow age appropriate autonomy.

No-one on here is saying that all children should have every thing they want or be able to do every thing they want. That would be total over indulgence.

The thing that stands out to me about this post of yours is that your parents put their own needs and wants above yours in all areas. Lots of not making noise so as not to upset the adults around you. Lots of their comfort being prioritised.

It sounds like the way my own parents describe their upbringing in the 50s which was loving and basic needs were met but also still a hangover of the children should be seen and not heard era. Peace and quiet is to appease adults only.

I’ve spent a lot of time in Western Europe and most countries there have a very different outlook on how children should behave publicly. Children are allowed to be children, they are allowed to run around and make noise and if they have a meltdown no-one rolls their eyes or gets antsy, they just crack on with their day. It’s very different to the uk and really nice to see.

This reminds me of going yo a really busy noisy carvery for my bils 40th when my DD was a few months old. She was very stressed probably because it was all noisy and stuff but OOOH NO! my MIL insisted she couldn't possibly be affected by her surroundings but would only cry because her teeth must hurt (or some shit). Really cunted me off

@Cheesecakecookie it doesn't sound as though your needs came second to adults though. It sounds as though you had a normal balanced childhood.

I don't advocate for allowing children to run around screaming in hotels or restaurants.

Forcing children to eat disgusting cold meals that they don't like and refusing to let them leave the table

This! I remember being made to do this many times. I never did it to our DC. To me it's abusive.

That was kind of my point with needs vs wants - maybe I didn’t articulate it very well but I was trying to point out that my parents didn’t martyr themselves for me and expected me to fit in with their life rather than the other way around BUT that this isn’t a bad thing as long as the child’s needs are met.

Id go so far as to say it’s a good thing that children know the world doesn’t revolve around them.

Id disagree @Cheesecakecookie. The example you gave of your holiday suggests to me that your parents put THEIR OWN needs first. Id actually argue that this is not great parenting. Of course the world doesn't revolve around the kids but it shouldn't revolve around the adults either. All the family's needs AND wants should be equally important.

For me it really does seem that way.

Personally I think the wants of a child coming second to adults is absolutely fine as long as needs are met. It is a good thing that children don’t grow up thinking the world will bend for them. Look at the huge culture of entitlement we now have in the UK.

It is basic manners to not disturb other people with your noise and activity. Children can play and make noise in playgrounds and parks sure - but in cafes and hotels ? No not ok.

Again I think you are conflating needs with wants. My parents put some of their wants above my wants as they were the adults and the ones paying.

I had no needs that were unmet and quite a lot of my wants - eg the beach or a trip to the park/playground were met too.

What was key is that what I wanted did not come before what everyone else wanted all of the time. This is healthy and a compromise.

I still had lots of choice - I could choose what I wanted to eat for example - as long as it wasn’t ice cream all day long.

It’s helpful in life to know from a young age that you cant have everything you want and I think a lot of modern parenting puts children front and centre all of the time. I don’t believe this is healthy for the children or the parents.

Yes I would also agree with this too. So for us on a holiday, everyone would get to do something that they really wanted to do. I will do child focused things, but do also expect the children to behave and suck it up if there's something that I want to do.

My view on holidays/activities might be a bit skewed because my family barely did anything nice and that was an extreme example of putting adults needs first.

I'm quite happy to do more child friendly things because I know that it isn't forever and I do like seeing children having fun, they don't tend to play out and be as free range as in the past. Mine are older now anyway.

I don't martyr myself though and I draw the line at Butlins.

“Look at the huge culture of entitlement we now have in the UK.”

Do we have this? I don’t see it. Where and how are you’d seeing this? I especially don’t see it amongst the children and young people I know and see. If anything the most entitled people I know are the older generations! The old dear pushing rudely past me with her trolley in the supermarket, the 75 year old fella in the coffee shop demanding to have his table wiped, I even see it in my own parents and in laws of that age even though they are lovely people, they can be quite embarrassing in public with their “well I’m not doing that!” attitude.

Careful @benefitstaxcredithelp people only care about agism on MN when it's against the older population. It's apparently perfectly fine to make sweeping generalisations about youngsters.

A bit of a silly one but at aldi once I was buying a bag of their popcorn they keep.by the till. The man serving me said aren't they really nice, I replied yes they're for my 2 year old daughter. His response was a shocked "they're too good for a 2 year old!"...to which I said nothings too good for my daughter

Ageism = unacceptable
Adultism = acceptable

😜

But I said we did get to do things I wanted on holiday - just that the entire holiday didn’t revolve around me ?

Re entitlement - benefitstaxcredithelp

Yes I do see this - I don’t specifically just mean young children now - I think it’s been a thing for a some years actually.

This is only my opinion ofcourse but I do think the switch to child centred everything in the last …20 or so years has coincided with a lot of entitlement as well as an inability to do things yourself.

Ive seen threads about workplaces and how employees now behave at work, about the behaviour of children in schools - seen loads of those, about how people seems to look elsewhere to fix problems rather than problem solving themselves. That’s why I’m meaning by entitlement.

The idea that it’s someone else’s fault or that someone else should bend/change/fix it for you.

Its probably for a number of reasons but I personally feel that the shift in parenting style has contributed.

What a massive oversimplification!

@Valeriekat I was responding to a poster who more or less said that kids today are pampered brats because there is an obesity crisis in children.

I was pointing out that there is an obesity crisis in adults too.

There are a multitude of reasons for this.

You can disagree if you like, but I believe that forcing children to clear their plate will lead to overeating and food issues.

@Cheesecakecookie I was agreeing with you that it sounds like you had a nice, balanced childhood.

I don't think that the sorts of things you mention are what I'm really in about.

Obviously forcing people to clear a plate is going to encourage them to carry on eating despite being full. That's not a good habit for a parent to teach a child.

Yes and no. I agree in the past people treated children like objects they owned and could command, but I don’t judge because we would’ve been the same no matter how enlightened we consider ourselves to be now.

I think modern parenting has gone too far though in treating children as small adults. Children still need direction, somebody to do most of their thinking for them, and boundaries. Child lead parenting has lead to a multitude of problems in my opinion.